No luck removing chuck

[morrisman]

Pete

Yes I have read that ATF and acetone makes a effective penetrant . I will do as you suggest .

Phil, thanks so much for your kind offer , but I will soldier on and I will win .

I will close off the post for now and do something else .... I've gone for a TOSCA . MIKE

[.RC.]

When you had your cheater bar on the chuck and under load you probably should have got someone to give it a whack with a hammer..... May have broken it free...

I have had to undo my fair share of recalcitrant nuts over the years and methods like that do work....

You would be amazed how tight those big nuts can get.. I have had to rebuild a few hydraulic rams off earthmoving equipment and those piston retaining nuts can be rather tight... Even though they are only maybe an 1 1/4" UNF thread usually I need a cheater bar 10ft long to shift them...

I personally think you are in the end going to have to resort to either turning it off, or bring out the 10lb hammer with all the risk that entails (damaged gears, damaged bearings)

Price a lump of cast iron round of the appropriate diameter for a new backing plate...

[PDW]

...

I personally think you are in the end going to have to resort to either turning it off, or bring out the 10lb hammer with all the risk that entails (damaged gears, damaged bearings)

Price a lump of cast iron round of the appropriate diameter for a new backing plate...

What I (and others) said before.

If I owned the damn thing and I didn't want to risk damaging a gear, I'd turn it off. Would have been a hell of a lot less time than this and no damage to the spindle or gears.

My stuck faceplate had a 2.25 x 8 thread and the faceplate weighed 50+ kg. As it was a cone head lathe, no chance of damaging any gears when I used the FBH persuasion technique.

PDW

[Pete F]

Agree, Mike I reckon this is seriously getting to the point where something other than the thread may get broken. Like you, I don't like giving up on things, so with that in mind here's what I would personally do if for some reason I needed to keep the backplate.

I'd lock the spindle with a clamp similar to that you mentioned but I personally would use wood against the gears. Still a metal clamp, but line the jaws with wood to grip the teeth. That should at least prevent damage down the other end. At the chuck end I'd spend the next couple of days basting that sucker down with all the penetrating oil/home brew as I could get my hands on. Then I'd see if I could actually support the spindle somehow to help prevent bearing damage or possibly even bending the spindle. I think since it's really rotational torque you're looking for you should even be able to wedge some hardwood or steel with protection pads under the backplate for support, yet it shouldn't interfere with what you're trying to achieve. I don't think I would do any of this without that support, because now this is all getting pretty dodgy IMHO. Then I'd heat the backplate as much as I dared, while keeping the spindle as cool as I could. Then I'd get a couple of neighbours or friends to tension everything so there's no "slack" in the works, drop your can of freeze into the spindle and then as quickly as possible give it the mightiest swing with the sledge on the cheater bar and pray like heck that a) the backplate comes loose and b) you haven't broken anything. As this stage I don't think either could be guaranteed. Don't go cheap with anything, you want lot's of penetrating oil, lot's of heat, lots of cold, and lot's of hammer! If you're considering skimping on any of the above consider this, if the thing breaks free you won't damage anything, but if it doesn't .....

If it still didn't come off after that then it's not coming off and you're going to have to turn it off. No shame in that.

Anyway, that's what I'd begrudgingly do if I really wanted to persist in trying to get it off, but of course others may think differently.

Pete

[pipeclay]

Looking at one of your photos there appears to be a reasonable amount of bruising on the rear of one of the slots.

As asked before and from what I have read,not answered by yourself,have you tried to turn the front section that the chuck mounted to and the slotted nut in opposite directions.

one of your pictures seem to indicate that the plate that the chuck mounted to and the slotted nut are to seperate pieces,it may only be an undercut giving this impression.

From what I have read it appears that most of the effort used in trying to remove this from the spindle has been in one direction only,towards the tailstock and no attempt has been made to lock the chuck or chuck mounting plate from turning and force applied to the slotted nut turning it in a clock wise direction.

Also the other questions about the thread length of your drive plate havent been answered ,is the length of the drive plate thread as long as the scetion still attached to your lathe spindle.

If you wanted to refit the chuck and put your c spanner on the nut and allow this to rest on the bed you could then use a long bar to try and crack the 2 pieces,you probably could try with the setup you last pictured.

If it dosent break the seal you have lost nothing except a small amount of time.

This still looks very much to me like a retention nut for the backing plate rather than an overly large back plate.

[Machtool]

This still looks very much to me like a retention nut for the backing plate rather than an overly large back plate.

This would have been better to continue this in the original thread.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/hendey-here-149694/

Picture of the face plate.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attachments/f65/201363d1331724069-hendey-here-4.jpg

If the face plate is any indication, its just an internal thread coming up to a shoulder register. Very typical.

I cant see that being a retention nut. It would need an O.D thread on the chucks / face plates surely?

This bugger is STUCK . I think GMH sold it cos they couldn't get the chuck off it.

I’m pretty familiar with Holden’s Fishermans Bend plant and the tool room. The tool room no longer exists, they spread it out, about 3-4 years ago with in the plant, to sell off the real estate. I moved the Jig Bores out of the toolroom and into plant 10.

That lathe was 1946, it wouldn’t have been in the toolroom since the 70’s. I’d guess it was out near a line some where. Crank or Cam or possible maintenance. Those guys aren’t up to changing a chuck. It was 3 jaw or nothing.

That backing plate possibly hasn’t been removed in 30 – 40 years.

You had that dirty big bar on it. I’d cut my losses, and remove it surgically.

Phil

[Abratool]

Mike
After reading all of the effort that has been applied so far, without any success, I agree with Phil & would go for the surgical removal.
Probably less chance of damage, for both humans & the machine.
regards
Bruce

[morrisman]

I appreciate everyones input

Pipeclay : Well I have tried moving it in the opposite direction, with the impact gun . I have done this before on tight bolts etc. I feel it is a one piece backing plate , I am almost 100% certain of that.

I put the DTI on the spindle MT bore , It has a .001" runout , this is good for a lathe of this size ? Any comments .

OK the plan is :

I have turned up a 1.5 " wide , round aluminium plate and bored it out, it fits over the gear on the spindle end . My plan is to mill a series of small slots around the inner cirumference of the plate . These slots line up with the gear teeth . I am then using short lengths of rod, maybe soft metal would be ideal, these rods will slide into the slots /teeth . The rods lock the ali ring onto the gear . I bolt a bar across the ali ring , holes will be drilled in the ali tapped for the bar .

I will ask the garage guy in town for a loan / hire of his small colt 22 oxy set . I will use the ATF acetone soak for a few days ... Attack it with the oxy heat and cross fingers , with the long bar . I'm sure it will come free .

Hi Phil

Interesting about GMH . Yes I'm sure your right . They haven't used the half nuts much as they are still in good shape , being METRIC I guess they didn't have much call for metric threading ! GMH stamps on the manual are :

Recieved CENTRAL PLANT & EQUIPMENT DEPARTMENT 6th Feb. 1948

CENTRAL PLANT & EQUIPMENT FILE GMH No. M5 1 28

Hendeyman on the PC forum is helping out with its History. He has All of the Hendey sales records EXCEPT for 1500 lathes made around 1940, my lathe falls in that gap He says he is chasing up the missing 1500 records and will have them lather this year . Hendey kept records of who each lathe was sold to and the acessories for it

MIKE

[morrisman]

A quick drawing of the spindle locking tool

[Stustoys]

Hi Mike,
Sorry but I dont like it much, What holds that gear onto the spindle? chances are its not much(In relation to the torque you're talking about applying).

If you're in that will with the local garage guy, does he have a 3/4 drive rat gun?

Stuart

[pipeclay]

Has the person you have been in contact with regards the lathe been able to shed any light on the configuration of the backplate.
Is the length of the back plate the same length as your drive plate.

[fxst]

MM I have been following this thread with interest and I honestly think that before you damage any item or even crack the headstock (unlikely) I would do as others suggest and surgically remove it. After all this time it seems you have given your best and it would be a pity if you now damage someting like the shaft of gears. As a wise man once sung 'you gotta know when to fold'
Pete

[morrisman]

Hi Mike,
Sorry but I dont like it much, What holds that gear onto the spindle? chances are its not much(In relation to the torque you're talking about applying).

If you're in that will with the local garage guy, does he have a 3/4 drive rat gun?

Stuart

I understand your reasoning Stuart . The gear is held by a keyway , milled into the spindle end , it wont turn .

I wonder if this would help . I was thinking of how stuck tie rods are removed from cars. A hammer is held against one side , and another hammer is hit against the opposite side . I could do the same while the hub is under torque .But I'd have to ask the neighbour to help out .

I am very aware of doing damage and I would not apply exessive rotational torque and twist the spindle ...

Pipeclay : Yes the guys on the PC USA forum say its a plain thread , no locking rings . Its a one piece backing plate

My neighbour suggested heating up the inner bore of the spindle ( where the MT taper is ) , gently with my LPG torch . Oxy is too agressive he said . Apply the penetrant while it is hot, it will then shrink down and break the grip .

MIKE

[morrisman]

Is the length of the back plate the same length as your drive plate.

I just measured it . yes its exactly the same length MIKE

[PDW]

I understand your reasoning Stuart . The gear is held by a keyway , milled into the spindle end , it wont turn .

I would not bet on that. The key may shear, partially shear or carry all the torque without any problems. As you don't know the size or material of the key, you simply cannot be sure. The rear gear on the spindle is just there to drive power feeds and threading, maybe only threading, I don't know. Regardless it is not designed to take the full HP of the machine or a huge amount of torque.

FWIW the key on my Smith-Drum was 1/4" square by 2" long IIRC and plain keystock (soft steel). I made sure the spindle could rotate freely before I applied the FBH technique and now I've thought about the gear train in yours, I probably wouldn't given that backplates are easily replaceable and easily fabricated, gears less so. Chucks are consumable items when it comes down to it - I've got a big 4 jaw sitting on my welding table.

I note that John Oder on PM said to put it in low gear and smack it. John has done a lot of work on old lathes including fab'ing up all sorts of attachments. You obviously think this is too risky yet those internal gears are much stronger and probably slide on splined shafts designed to transmit the full HP of the machine, including torque multiplication in low gear.

IMO it's time to ask yourself just what you're trying to achieve here. Is it to return the lathe to where you can exchange chucks easily or is the aim to remove that backplate in one piece?

If you break that gear and it is 12DP 14.5PA I can make you another as I've got a full set of 12DP gear cutters and a reasonable supply of 100mm round cast iron, but it wouldn't be as good as the original.

PDW