Virginia Tech

[glock40sw]

G'day John.
No apology needed. The idiotic few are the ones that need to weeded out.
The rest of us just want to enjoy our chosen sport without the red tape and hurdles that are continualy placed in our way.

[dazzler]

Thumbs up all.

A good robust debate and no one threw thier toys out of the cot!

Greenies all round !

[ernknot]

Steady on there Ern. You'll pop a vital vessel. No-one seriously suggests sporting shooters should be deprived of the primary means of pursuing their chosen sport or farmers from an effective means of vermin control. What people are saying is that there are too many guns too easily available in the USA. All kinds of loonies can get hold of them without a license or a back-ground check. The NRA has been very influential in watering down any safety mechanisms designed to make it harder for the general public to own a weapon for reasons other than sport/competition. For example if you go to one of the many gun shows in most states of the USA, there are two main categories of sellers in the market. One is the professional retailer. To buy a legal weapon from a licensed retailer, you must endure a waiting period and undergo a background check and the weapon must be licensed in the hands of the buyer. The other type of seller is euphemistically referred to as a 'collector'. These so-called 'collectors' can sell weapons (of any kind) to any one without a waiting period or background check and usually for cash, which makes the weapon untraceable.
IMHO the gun laws in this country are about right.

Isn't that the concern of the US? Today on ninemsn and yesterday the polls asked questions about AUSTRALIAN GUN LAWS. Who is palying politics? TV and other media of course. I am just totally fed up with being tagged as a potential "killer". I did my time in the service, learned to respect fire arms, still own a few, still use them for target practice and hunting. I just wish the media would get of this gun hystiria. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL. If i left a .5" caliber maqchine gun (loaded) sitting in the lounge of my home no one would get killed. The machine gun has no logic for crying out loud!!!! I have refused to watch the news all about the US shooting as tragic as it is. If we were real about controlling nutters we should be more vigilant about mind bending drugs and such. This is what sets off most nutters. The media is having a real tugging session with this, if only they realy cared!

[Brown Dog]

Howard's buy back was only part of the package - another part was the amnesty against illegal weapons. I don't know how many that took out of the mix, but I do know of at least one. A friend was given a .22 calibre, fully automatic combat weapon (with the styling, it could be nothing else) with a 20 round magazine. This thing had no safety so once cocked it was live. With it's snub nosed barrel, it could have only two uses - spraying a confined space (such as a bunker) and posing - I can see no reason for it to be in the community (how it got there in the first place is another and more troubling question).

You can complain about the buy back and the amnesty all you like, but it did have positive effects as well.

Richard

Richard, putting aside wether we like or dont like guns for a second.... if you or anyone can prove that the buy back did have positive effects and that money has directly saved lives and significantly reduced the amount of illegal (it has probably increased the number of legally owned)firearms in the community...I would be happy to hear it.


I still think that the gun buy back was nothing more than a misappropriation of public funds. A good indication of that is how the government came to the conclusion that $500million would be enough to significantly reduce the amount of guns in the community. A phone poll of less than 2000 males . I now if some stranger rang me up and asked if owned any guns I would politely say no....

As I said before only 7% of the total number of now prohibited guns were handed in, in NSW. Im not sure about other states, but I assume the figure wouldnt be much higher. And that is only the ones they know about (based on dealer records).

Your are right the buyback was only one part the other part was the introduction of the so called "National gun laws"....which turned out to another crock, because the states couldnt agree...so some states have more relaxed laws than others. NSW currently has some of the most draconian gun laws in the world.

I havent complained or heard anyone complain about the amnesty...but as far as im aware there is always an amnesty on illegal "weapons" (I dont like that term to me... my guns are sporting equipment just like golf clubs) including knives.

As far as your friend being given a "fully automatic combat weapon" these were never legal to own in Australia and nor should they be....so who ever gave it to him got it illegally.

My beef isnt with reducing the amount of unesessary guns ...its with the effectiveness of some the current governments policy and anti gun people directing their rhetoric at the inocent law abiding shooter.

I do agree that there was some good to come out of the new laws. I think the storage provisions is a good thing . But from a shooters point a large majority of the new laws are unfair and does little to prevent gun crime....If Howard had listened to the people who make it their job to know about all things firearm related we would most likely have more effective laws.

I just think that, that little add on to the medicare levy that we all paid would have saved more lives if it had been spent on something like more police or boosting the health care system, not buying bunny busters off good hard working Aussie farmers.....but thats another issue



cheers
BD

[Toolin Around]

short excerpt from Bowling from columbine

FYI Moore had to admit that his films had little if anything to do with truth but more about attacking someone he hated - Bush. Every nutter on his films can be found anywhere in the world. It surprises me of how many people in Aus take his films as if they're gospel.

[Toolin Around]

Hmm, it seems our media are giving us inaccurate facts.

Rocker

LOL tell me you didn't already know this.

[Master Splinter]

When you are looking at the Australian statistics, you have to remember that the gun related offences are a small component of the total - and when you are dealing with small numbers, any trend in the data is going to be very hard to pick out from the 'noise' in the series.

In the armed robbery stats, the percentage where guns were involved does seem to be decreasing - its gone from 15.5% in 1993 to 6.3% in 2001, or a decrease of more than 50% over that time.

However, year to year variation (those figures hop around like a mad rabbit) is quite high, which would make me cautious of claiming any sort of trend without looking at how the statistics were compiled.

Those graphs are the number of victims, which is not necessarily correlated to the number of offences or incidents - we could just be seeing a trend of offenders going for softer targets (such as the corner store, with one person in it and no security compared to the bank with 25 people, cameras and alarms). I could be wrong, I'm just doing this off the top of my head and I haven't looked at the methodology behind the statistics.

And as for the murder stats - out of some 300 murders, guns are involved in about 20% of them (or some 60 odd murders); this jumps up in 1996 (Port Arthur) but then settles back down to about the same level as before.

If you are trying to say 'gun control works', (as in the Firearms buyback), OR "Nyahh nyahh, its made no difference" you can't really do it from those stats yet.

The firearms buyback was meant to cut down on large scale events like Port Arthur; check the stats in maybe 20-40 years to see if there has been a reduction in gun related mass murders...we don't really get a lot of them, so it takes time to collect enough data to make any conclusions.

[martrix]

FYI Moore had to admit that his films had little if anything to do with truth but more about attacking someone he hated - Bush. Every nutter on his films can be found anywhere in the world. It surprises me of how many people in Aus take his films as if they're gospel.

Facts in Mike's FilmsBowling for Columbine.

Farenheit 911 Facts six pages of them.

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline this project has been stalled by the resistance of some peeps trained and armed by the U.S. wielding Kalashnikov's and hiding in caves after it was re-started when the U.S. invaded and tossed out the Taliaban. Billions of dollars worth of high tech warplanes and bunker buster bombs still cant get them.
Thats why more troops are on there way over.....gotta get the pipeline and the dollars flowing.......

You're right though TA, who gives a &^$! anymore! Lets just ride this pony and beat it till it stays dead. "Giddy up"

[Sturdee]

This seems to have developed into a discussion on the merit or otherwise of gun control here.

I strongly support gun control and I believe the restrictions are not restrictive enough. This is because of a very personal issue.

My eldest brother has had to live since 1945 with only one eye as he lost the other one through a youth prank with a pistol found when the germans were overthrown in Holland at the end of the war.

Some teenager found the pistol and shot a wad of hot candle wax which got into my brother's eye. Despite numerous operations he lost the eye and has a glass eye instead. I suppose we ought to be grateful that he didn't use the submachine guns or machine pistols that also abounded straight after the war.

Too often statistics are quoted to support one side or the other but what about the victims and their relatives of guns being abused.

I know guns don't kill but people do. But if the guns are not readily available than people wouldn't be able to use them to kill others.

I feel very saddened by what happened, I feel for the victims and the relatives in that massacre. In a very small way I can relate to how they feel.

I also feel that this thread ought to be closed as I feel gun control debate in Australia debases what has happened over there.


Peter.

[joe greiner]

I also feel that this thread ought to be closed as I feel gun control debate in Australia debases what has happened over there.
Peter.

I agree. Although this has been a healthy debate about gun control, the present situation won't be resolved without a lot of detective and research work. Current news suggests that Mr. Cho had some very serious emotional adjustment issues; that can't be ignored. Alas, any "profiles" that are developed will be painted with a broad brush. Government, after all, is not a precision instrument.

As I've said before, I have a heightened interest in the massacre, having secured my degrees at Va Tech. Recent news also has reported the room numbers in Norris Hall. It appears that I taught in one of the classrooms, or maybe on the floor above; it's been about 30 years ago, and I don't remember whether I was on the second floor or the third.

The forum may not be the best venue for further debate; I leave that decision to the owner and the mods.

Joe

[Schtoo]

Dazzler, it was a mafia hit from what I understand, and he died early this morning.

From what I heard today, it was something to with pork-barrelling and he was not playing ball with the Yakuza, so they decided to get rid of him. Other prefectures have been hauled over coals for engaging in such politiking, and this guy didn't. Another good guy (as far as I know) gone.

His son in law is now running for mayor because of this.

I wouldn't want to be mayor of Nagasaki, it's just not safe since...

The previous mayor was also assasinated over comments about the Showa (WWII) Emperor and how he should have been treid over war crimes. That was sure to rile someone up, enough so that someone murdered him for it.


As for the whole gun debate, no real comment from me since I live somewhere that has no guns.

Err, maybe there are...

Tell ya what though, it's not that there are no guns here, its a cultural thing. Crazy stuff like that doesn't happen very often, possibly made less likely because of no guns, I don't know for sure. What I do know is that when it does happen, the government and police are not very well equipped to deal with such 'out of character behaviour', and do tend to knee jerk pretty hard.

The other problem is that the societal restraint is starting to get softer as the generations progress. That worries me, since I have little boy who will be growing up in a society that relies heavily on self restraint, but said control is having less and less effect as time goes on.


There is one place that has lotsa guns, and is relatively free of gun-related crime. Little place with lotsa mountains and they make little pocket knives with all kinds of doo-dads in them. That's the other side of the coin compared to here, and it also seems to work. Again, more cultrual than related to anything else.

[Rocker]

Joe,

I felt it was better to raise this topic here rather than attempting to participate in the thread on Sawmill Creek because we are at some distance from the tragedy, and yet we have had a similar experience with the Port Arthur massacre.

I think Schtoo is right that it is cultural differences rather than gun regulations that determine the extent of gun-related homicides in a country. However, what is puzzling to non-Americans is that, despite the high rate of homicide there, and the prevalence of these massacre incidents, there seems little willingness to make any effort to change that culture, where a large percentage of people feel that the only way that they can be safe is to arm themselves, and to be willing to use a firearm in self-defence, and where many people regard lax gun regulation as part of the freedom that should be the birthright of people in a mature democracy.

Having lived some years in America, I was surprised at how this glorification of individual freedom, at the expense of the communal good, is so prevalent. For instance, it is very common over there to see road-users flouting the helmet and seat-belt laws, and to see people driving unregistered vehicles. Quite a few people see it as a noble expression of individual freedom to flout such laws, and yet they are respected as 'libertarians' rather than condemned for being anti-social.

Rocker

[Sturdee]

The forum may not be the best venue for further debate; I leave that decision to the owner and the mods.

Joe

Joe,

I'm not against a proper debate on gun control as such, but let it be in it's own thread and headed accordingly. I won't enter into such debate but others can, if they wish.

It just seems so improper to convert the discussion on the massacre to this kind of debate, it seems so disrespectful to the memory of the innocent victims and their relatives.

Peter.

[JeffG.]

Hello... it seems I have been caught up in a bad time to have joined a great forum.

I just wanted to post something, a bit of my perspective as I am an American, and I had an interesting conversation this morning with my wife regarding this issue. We were both dog tired, its what? Wednesday and we've both pulled 36 hours and this week is a long way from over. I only have seen her for about 1 hour since Sunday, but this subject dominated the conversation. The problem is complex, and the consequences are terrible. And there is no answer that I can see, and my country will suffer from the sheer number of cheap, accessible weapons for a long time. That brings me a lot of sadness.

I come from a family that has always owned guns. We hunt. Every year we go together. My father and my uncles hunted when they were kids, when they were dirt poor, in a time when that was how you put food on the table.

They served in the military. My father was in the 101st Airborne. He taught me how to shoot. I can't remember when, because I was young. But I understand a gun, and I understand what it can do, and I respect that. There is no foolishness.And I hunted with my father and uncles. I learned to respect the land. I understand the resource, and why it should not be wasted. When you walk it year after year you see the changes and I think about what I am leaving for those that come after me.

My wife calls it "the circle". She came to this country almost 9 years ago, from a place where there was no gun ownership - ever. My father taught her the same as me, as my brother, the same as my nieces and nephews. How to understand and respect both the weapon and the land. Every year she takes one deer - if she gets the opportunity. She both kills and dresses the animal. I am very proud of her, as is my family.

I give you this bit of my background only so that you will hopefully more fully appreciate my next thoughts. As much as I love this time of the year, the heritage it represents to me... I would willingly give it up if it meant preserving the lives of those thirty+ people at Virginia Tech. Absolutely, without question. You are talking about thirty people who represent hard working, achieving individuals working to educate themselves. Thirty people of the type that my country needs.

The problem is deep. There is a cultural problem, or a problem with the society... however you wish to look at it. A shallowness, a glorification of violence, a lack of respect... whatever. Probably all those things and more. I'm not sure where that came from, or if its even possible to correct it. It seems as if the idiots just breed faster then the rest of us. While giving up access to guns may solve part of the problem, I feel that long term we must address the bigger issue or suffer grave consequences.

The problem with the gun debate is that the most vocal are not the most rational. Its interesting the mention of the NRA... because none of my family are members. We gave it up long ago when they went off the deep end fighting against background checks, registration and all of those other things that one would think would simply be common sense. In the end I think the way some people fought against any type of regulation may prove to be the undoing of all the rest of us.

I appreciate the fact that you allowed me to join your forum. I only posted this to give you my perspective, certainly not to offend anyone.

These are difficult and tricky times indeed - for all of us. And its not going to get any easier, not in our lifetimes. I believe that those of us who have decent values have to pass those on to the people we love, and be prepared to make some difficult decisions.

Good luck to all.

[Metal Head]

Irrespective of what laws are passed basically anywhere in the World. It will never stop irrational behaviour of some people who have psychological problems who are generally the type of people who are involved in massacres like this. What about the 200+ people who died in Iraq overnight because of suicide bombers. Given the nimbers of people willing to sacrifice their lives for the cause in this living hell will be going on for years.

I don't think it will be long before one of our own dies over there and the Australian attitude will change.