Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?

[Carry Pine]

Are the ED unit kids in their own class or are they integrated into regular classes?

They have their own class + have one-two hours in regular if they can cope with it.

CP

[Jedo_03]

Some will remember I posted yesterday (page 2) concerning my g'daughter going to the principal...
Quote [(1) just today
10 yr old g'daughter came over - very sad and upset
seems one of her friends at school told her that her mother had punched and kicked her... always doing it, she said...
g'daughter told her mother (who is a pre-school teacher - mandatory reporter and all that...) who advised g'daughter to tell prinicipal (she went with her) on the grounds that better to stop it now rather than let it escalate further...
Right or wrong... what worries me is that my g'daughter could end up in flames by telling the principal...] End quote

Ok - well here's what happened...
G'daughter went to school. 10am phone call to her mother - please come to the school, your daughter is crying and upset: arrives to find g'daughter and said girl (abuse victim) sitting together in principals office - "it's okay, they're the best of friends and girl says she's glad g'daughter told somebody cos she wasn't brave enough..." says principal... But then says "I think it would be better if you took (g'daughter) out of school today cos DOCS has been informed and there might be some trouble..."
Shee!... Does this principal have ANY common sense at all..?
What is it with these egoistic morons that they believe they can intervene in children's lives..? Teacher knows best... Does he even flapping realise what damage he is potentially causing by discussing this with BOTH kids present - and NO parents - and sod-all psychological experience in counselling abused kids, except his own damned ideation of how bloody clever he must be - cos he's the principal...
What the hell was he thinking when he called the 2 kids into his office for a little tete a tete..?
Why didn't he just do his damned duty as a mandatory reporter and inform DOCS and let them do their job?
Sorry for the vent and the rant - but some of the other things my g'daughter comes home and tells me about what teachers (and the principal) have said and done have resulted in my interventions (interviews with teachers and principals generally lead to nowhere - cos they know far more than us parents and g'parents)
I believe that the teaching fraternity contribute MUCH to the growing of our kids with their own negativity towards kids... I'll end with this - One female teacher said to me personally (about my g'daughter) "Well she can be an insolent little bitch at times..."
"Hey - Teacher... Leave them kids alone..."
Jedo

[Burnsy]

BehviourS? Is this from a teacher???

Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up. I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

[Carry Pine]

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine

[Article99]

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'

Alright, I'm only a young bull and all and went through school without the fear of a hiding, but what I see from the same and newer generations is nothing short of appalling.

I'm not saying we need corporal punishment, just less of this 'everyone's a victim' BS.

High time I reckon kids be made to learn consequences of their actions, rather than have a bloody shrink diagnose them. That simple..

I was told once that people had expectations of themselves and others that were written in places, but didn't need reminding. Folks were taught what they were from day one. Somewhere along the lines, it's all been against the wall.

Parents, Teachers, Do-Gooders alike, lift your game.

Actually, we'd be better off without the do-gooders. P!ss off, ya blaggers.

No offence intended to Burnsey or others specifically, more so entire groups as a whole. I'm sure of which there are good and bad eggs in each.

/rant off.

[Burnsy]

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine

We have done quite alot of training on different systems and approaches and I find you usually get something out of each one. As I said in my response to Derek, I believe there is no one response or answer that fits all for a given behaviour and unfortunately to many university lecturers make undergraduates believe there is. Every prac teacher that comes into my class comments that in regard to our school, the lecturers are so far off the ball it is not funny.

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

[Christopha]

Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up. I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

Burnsy, maaate, it's the heading of this whole thread.
"Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?"

[wheelinround]

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

Burnsy this is why I said you are one of many good teachers It is a shame that so many others can not admit they are human and have faults.

The kids in question your original post and vent they could be the sort of kid who has been upset by the changes at the school including your roll taking you or the other person your relieving away.

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.

The problem came when they left and went on to high school they couldn't cope couldn't handle the many teachers in one day a few of the students had to go back and repeat due to health issues brought on by the practice. The primary school had to change its ways. Teachers left because of it the 3 or 4 high schools had to learn how to cope and handle those kids for 5 years.

To many of these children it was there first stable thing in this country they had this was back in the 75's/80's and close to a immigration centre.

[Burnsy]

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.

We have muti age classes and loop many kids as you mentioned. I have a few in my class this year for the third time and they are brilliant because we all understand each other very well as you say and it allows us to have alot of fun. There are others I had had for two years that I had to swap out this year as I could not stand to have them in my class again due to the constant stress. Other teachers were in the same boat so we swap a few troubled ones around to give each other a break, sometimes it is better the devil you don't know

I think essentially most of the issues our kids have are driven by their out of school environment. As they mature, especially with the year sevens, there are those that make massive shifts in their behaviour as they suddenly look around and realise what they are doing and take control of their learning. It is funny to see this happen as many with younger siblings suddenly question the behaviour of the younger ones and can't understand why they don't get it and make the change. We have one such boy who I often see telling his little brother "no detentions today OK?" as they part company in the morning.

Thanks for everyones responses, it has been great to hear the different view points and angles.

[SPIRIT]

so l think we have covered why kid are so disruptive but how are we going about fixing it or are we just going to keep putting bandaid stop gaps in place

l hear in the UK that they are going to over haul the education system from the bottom up ,spending heeps of money ,

l have a new kid in my team a EMO cuts and all ,where do you start with kids this messed up ,

[munruben]

A lot of this is theory and observation, my boys are 9 & 11 so I have some way to go, but I hope they have the backbone to choose a smart peer group when the time comes,

And the wisdom to know the difference.

[munruben]

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'.

Yeah and the counselor probably hasn't even got any kids but he can tell you what to do cos he's read the text book on child behavior.
You raise some good points.

[Grahame Collins]

I am a teacher like the others who has seen and suffered the same as the others who have replied. Our kids are not like us ,some of them are affected by a huge range of factors that did not apply to us when we were growing up.

The following I believe are some of the reasons why some of the kids act the way they do.Its not an excuse for them ,nor is it a criticism,its an observation.It does not apply to all kids.There still are a good number that are still being raised well.

Split families –divorce separation –a lack of a father figure.I see problem kids that ride roughshod over Mum and occasionally Dad.

Socio economic –Mum and dad both work full time- but not near enough time spent with the kids. Too much time spent unaccounted for with their peer group while Mum and Dad are toiling to pay off expensive houses and consumer goods.

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.

Environment-some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.

Media especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after a few instances of the problem was reported on TV.

TV and Movies, DVDs that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes.

Communication technology in general is faceless and anonymous, therefore little responsibility is needed.An example is the anonymous bullying by SMS. Do you know most kids with a phone ignore parent and school rules and still bring them to school.What can a teacher do? Take the phone from the student until last lesson.Until that time we are responsible for an expensive phone.Some kids use the phone photo video system to record out of school fights that are provoked ( yes provoked)

Lack of real penalties for real misbehavior in school-do you think being suspended from school is a punishment for poor behavior-it’s a reward. Punishment is taking something away that the offender wants.Usually that is in the parental domain,

Back to banging our heads against the wall!

And No,I don't have a real solution either
Grahame

[munruben]

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.

Nevertheless, this is the child's decision to follow the leader, you can't blame the company you keep for your behavior. Its a personal, calculated decision by the individual to follow the path they choose.

some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.

This is nothing new, It has been going on for generations but I agree would have a negative effect on children of that family but don't see that it would necessarily cause the child to turn out bad. I have known of case similar to this where the child has only been too pleased to get out of the home and lead a normal life because they have experienced first hand what it's like to live under those terrible conditions.

especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after it was reported on TV.

I think TV has a lot to answer for with the quality of material it shoves down out throat. I guess we weren't subjected to the graphic displays of violence and the lack of moral standards portrayed on the screen today but where, as parents, did we go wrong and allow this to happen. When did we start to allow the swearing in public places and why do we tolerate this kind of behavior? and it's not just the kids who do this. I hear adults my own age swearing in public, at the local club I visit, out in the streets and on TV. Why did we allow that to happen in the first place?

that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes.

I agree, the quality, again, is appalling .Just take a look at our locally produced "Home and away" to see the moral values and disrespect to the older generation they show us every day of the week but we still have to take responsibility for our own actions surely I still feel that people behave the way they do because thats the way they want to behave. We are all subjected to these things mentioned in this thread by yourself and others but we are not all murderers or criminals or rapists. So what made these people turn out the way they did, why didn't we all turn out bad.
I'm sorry but I can't believe that the influence of TV, movies, peer pressure or whatever can make a person do what he or she doesn't want to do. We hear it in the courts so often that "poor 20 year old Johnny had a bad life is on drugs, saw it on TV, peer pressure etc.caused him to do what he did" It's always someone else's fault never poor little Johnnies fault.
Lets live in the real world for once, I had peer pressure, I had TV and movies showing people doing the wrong things. I read of crime and rape and murder in the newspapers. I mixed with "bad" people. I saw bad things happen. I chose not to do those things
Whatever it is inside of me, made me make that decision while others chose to go the other way. I left school when I was 9 years old I had no real education but I worked hard to be a better person and struggled to achieve a better lifestyle than my parents had and I did that. I had plenty of chances to take the easy way out and make excuses as to why I couldn't succeed in life but I got on with the job instead of blaming everyone else for my "hard luck" I taught myself by reading books.
No, I don't know the answers but lets stop blaming everyone and everything else for someones bad behavior and face reality and stop making excuses for them and let them face the consequences of their actions.

[Carry Pine]

Who is to blame?

One thing that I realised about 2 years ago was that it is no use blaming anybody who is irresponsible. People in authority know it is no use telling a down-and-out person that he suffers from alcohol abuse and contributes nothing to the community. Better to blame someone who is in a responsible position like his parents , school teachers or politicians. When kids won't do homework or wear uniform at school parents look to the teachers to enforce the 'rule' and if it's not done, the teachers are responsible. If a child goes agro in my class, his parents ask 'What did you do to set him off?'. If a kid mucks up on the way home from school on the bus, the driver has lost control.

And even if we could answer Burnsy's question about who is responsible, what could we do about it? As a teacher, I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility for what a kid wears to school or when he swears at school staff. His parents will say that he has a school uniform but sneaks other clothes into his bag and that maybe the teacher provoked him.(Let's have a time wasting session to replay everything that happened in the lesson so we find out it really wasn't the kid's fault.)

Some people are very close to others who are victims of addiction. Far from writing their friends and relations off, they assist them, pay their fines, clean up after them and sometimes stand in the way of them going to jail. When that person finally comes around, the helper is labelled as an 'enabler'. The addiction wouldn't have been so bad if those do-gooders hadn't been enabling him over those years. Sometimes you try and do the responsible thing and you get it thrown in your face.

Carry Pine