so whats our immigration policy?

[corbs]

We need to remember that terrorists have spare funds and fake passports. They don't want to risk their lives in leaky boats when they can take out a whole jetliner. The chances of serious problems in these boatloads is not great.

- Michael

A few people that want to do harm can pack a lot of equipment in a small leaky boat to do that harm. Explosives are pretty well controlled and monitored in Australia but if you can source and transport them from offshore then the ability to do that damage is significant.

I have absolutely no issue with legitimate refugees seeking asylum in Australia and we should do everything we can to assist them. But if the means of their arrival in Australia presents a security risk to those already here then there should be serious restrictions on that method of travel.

[yashinskiy]

Just would like to add some of my personal experience to the heated discussion.
I am Russian, landed in Brisbane 8 years ago, did all kinds of stuff including studying at uni, meeting my wife (Mexican), bringing two kids into the world (third one due in July), finishing cabinet making course, starting my own custom furniture company and some other bits and pieces. We applied for permanent residency in November 2008 in January 09 there were an introduction of new rules including Critical Skills List and as of March all the trades were taken off the critical list retrospectively affecting our application. We have been on Bridging visa A ever since. Recently I've received a letter which stated that our application most probably won't be picked up until the end of 2012. If the outcome is negative we will have 28 days to leave the country. My local MP is mr Rudd. and apparently there is nothing that can be done. My letter to the immigration minister was entitled: "What kind of citizen do you need?". In the letter I simply asked for someone to have a look at our application and if the answer is no, we will simply move on. There is nothing worse than being suspended like that. You can stay but you cannot live. That's why so many people leave. From my perspective sometimes it looks like a set up. Australia is heavily promoted overseas as a country to come and live the dream life. So many people come in, get handed over a booklet with instructions: study this, pay this, fill this in, pay that, do this test, pay here and then you are an Australian!!! and every couple of years there is a change which pushes
you three steps back. An average student brings into economy: $20,000 (two year course fee minimum)+$20,000(per year living expenses) + immigration fees + taxes etc. I am up to $210,000. I don't want a badge of recognition. This is the best country in the world and all the effort worth it, but what else one must do??? We have explored every avenue. I have three choices in front of me: 1) going to Canada. 2) Going to Hague international court of Justice 3) Setting up a tent by the immigration building in brisbane with my kids and pregnant wife. If anyone has other ideas I am all ears.

I might be off topic, but i think some real life facts on any issue are useful.

Alexander

[hughie]

I might be off topic, but i think some real life facts on any issue are useful.

Alexander

Nah and as the originator of this little discussion its a fair comment.

The bureaucratic heifer dust that wanders around the immigration dept and the fees charged are reminiscent of a wounded bull. I have had a fair bit of experience with said immigration dept and in many circumstances I would not feed them.

I would not like to be in your position for quids. But heres a suggestion that might be useful. Have you considered NZ? as a possible place to go to. Theres a lot going for it and its a close neighbour that enjoys no visa requirements for its citizen to come to this country and it has a 2 year residency requirement to obtain citizenship.

A its warmer than Canada, cheaper to get to and you get more for your dollar there.

all the best

[hughie]

Had a quick look on Gurgle, zip. Could you help out with some links and supporting evidence. Many thanks.

You wont find much evidence on Google. But as I move around in different circles and have spent much time in Asia. These are personal observations of collections done at private parties and functions etc.


But here is a selection of sites on our most recent group of visitors.I have not singled them out in particular but simple have used them as they are our newest lot of people who gain support from with in Australia.

Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), Terrorist Group of Sri Lanka

No jail for Australians who helped Tamil Tigers - Yahoo! Singapore News

Commentary #77

[Black Cat]

Also no resources. Most of our capital cities are running out of water. That can not be fixed with infrastructure. Most of our arable land is disappearing under houses. That means we will be dependent on external food supplies. Working out the carrying capacity of the land is an essential exercise for any farmer. And we have not worked out the carrying capacity of our country. Once you work that out, you realise that bringing in more people - or breeding too many home-grown specimens - will lead to a lowering of living standards for all of us.

Getting serious about sorting out an economy that is not dependent on exponential growth is becoming a critical issue for all of us. As you say - time to get serious about the real issues.

[Sebastiaan56]

What, immigrants sending money back to their parents in the home country... well I never...

Not all Tamils are terrorists in the same way that not all Australians are Labour supporters. That said the Tamil Tigers have been carrying out terror activities in Sri Lanka for over 20 years and pretty well invented suicide bombing. The leadership are seriously unpleasant people who lost sight of their original cause. My understanding is that they bully and intimidate their own people as much as they attempted to create their own state. Its probably a good thing that they didnt succeed. Tamils are the ethnic minority and have for decades been subject to discrimination. They were originally brought to Sri Lanka by the British to work in the sugar plantations. When the empire fell apart India wouldnt take them back and Sri Lanka didnt want them. They were stuck. Unlike the Palestinians who were the traditional owners of the land they are displaced. I think it would be a tough call to be born a Tamil in Sri Lanka.

Given the boats and condition these people travel in Corbs I reckon it would be hard to smuggle any explosives. Remember that most of them have rotted in displacement camps for years before attempting the boat crossing to Aus. My understanding is that most arrive with the clothes on their backs. If they did pack heat the detention centres would have been destroyed by now. There are also extensive health and background checks. I think a much bigger threat is home grown terrorists such as those being trained in the mosques in our capital cities.

Alexander, when I logged in this morning there were banners promoting visas for USA and Canada. New Zealand is also a very nice place. Our Immigration Department is ideologically driven to keep people out even if they are valuable citizen material. It is a deeply held belief that goes back to the cleansings of natives peoples in the 19th century. It sucks, keep us posted of your progress. Appeals to Ministers etc have worked in the past.

I completely agree that the immigration debate is useless without a population policy. But an Australian population policy will be completely useless without a regional or worldwide population strategy. Imagine the attraction of a sparsely populated Australia to Asia bulging at the seams with people. From what I understand improving living standards and education reduce population growth. Thats where the effort and aid money should be spent IMO.

[Big Shed]

Not all Tamils are terrorists in the same way that not all Australians are Labour supporters. That said the Tamil Tigers have been carrying out terror activities in Sri Lanka for over 20 years and pretty well invented suicide bombing. The leadership are seriously unpleasant people who lost sight of their original cause. My understanding is that they bully and intimidate their own people as much as they attempted to create their own state. Its probably a good thing that they didnt succeed. Tamils are the ethnic minority and have for decades been subject to discrimination. They were originally brought to Sri Lanka by the British to work in the sugar plantations. When the empire fell apart India wouldnt take them back and Sri Lanka didnt want them. They were stuck. Unlike the Palestinians who were the traditional owners of the land they are displaced. I think it would be a tough call to be born a Tamil in Sri Lanka.

Sebastiaan, what you say there is only partly correct. According to Wikipedia there are 2 different Tamil groups in Sri Lanka:

Tamils are concentrated in the North, East, Central and Western provinces of the country. Sri Lankan Tamils are the second major ethnic group on the island and have called it home for generations. Indian Tamils who were brought as indentured labourers from India by British colonists to work on estate plantations, nearly 50% of whom were repatriated following independence in 1948,^{[45][page needed]} are called "Indian Origin" Tamils. They are distinguished from the native Tamil population that has resided in Sri Lanka since ancient times.
According to 2001 census data Indian Tamils makeup 5.1% of the Sri Lankan population and, Sri Lankan Tamils 4.3% but this figure only accounted for Sri Lankan Tamils in government-controlled areas, not accounting for those in rebel-held territories. The World Factbook states that Sri Lankan Tamils make up 14% of the population. There is a significant population (8.0%) of Moors, who trace their lineage to Arab traders and immigrants from the Middle East. Their presence is concentrated in the cities and the central and eastern provinces. There are also small ethnic groups such as the Burghers (of mixed European descent) and Malays from Southeast Asia.

This is yet another of the legacies left behind by our rapacious British cousins and their empire. Another one is of course Iraq and let's not forget Afghanistan. It is no coincidence therefore that these are the countries where most of our illigal immigrants are arriving from. A previous wave arrived from Vietnam, a legacy of the French colonialists.

If we added up the potential number of illegal immigrants from Sri Lanka, Iraq and Afghanistan and opened our doors to all of them, as you appear to be advocating, they would add quite substantially to our population and change our culture and way of life dramatically, not to mention the fact that we would have a problem in finding jobs for them, and our infrastructure would collapse under the pressure.

It is one thing to be "touchy feely", but we also need to look at the practicalities of this problem.

There is no country in the world that throws open their borders to any disaffected citizens of other countries, not even the Scandinavian countries.

The reason our Immigration Dept is not as soft a touch as some people would like is that if they were people would only have to actually arrive here, eg on a visitors visa, and then just apply for permanent residency. If that was the case any airline flying to Australia would be doing a roaring business.

Even NZ is not as soft a touch as some people seem to indicate, the UK are probably tougher than most (even though they caused most of these problems in the first place!), the Scandinavian countries still deport unsuccessful applicants (but will alow them to live in the community whilst they go through the process).

We need to consider the long term effects of relaxing our rules of entry and what effect this will have on arrivals, something Rudd didn't do and is now paying the price for.

[Sebastiaan56]

Sebastiaan, what you say there is only partly correct. According to Wikipedia there are 2 different Tamil groups in Sri Lanka:

Tamils are concentrated in the North, East, Central and Western provinces of the country. Sri Lankan Tamils are the second major ethnic group on the island and have called it home for generations. Indian Tamils who were brought as indentured labourers from India by British colonists to work on estate plantations, nearly 50% of whom were repatriated following independence in 1948,^{[45][page needed]} are called "Indian Origin" Tamils. They are distinguished from the native Tamil population that has resided in Sri Lanka since ancient times.
According to 2001 census data Indian Tamils makeup 5.1% of the Sri Lankan population and, Sri Lankan Tamils 4.3% but this figure only accounted for Sri Lankan Tamils in government-controlled areas, not accounting for those in rebel-held territories. The World Factbook states that Sri Lankan Tamils make up 14% of the population. There is a significant population (8.0%) of Moors, who trace their lineage to Arab traders and immigrants from the Middle East. Their presence is concentrated in the cities and the central and eastern provinces. There are also small ethnic groups such as the Burghers (of mixed European descent) and Malays from Southeast Asia.

Thanks for the clear up Shed. I saw a show on the history of India and the caostal Tamils there had some on the closest DNA to Afrcan people. Its probable its one of the first areas colonised in the migration from Africa. FWIW.

Im not advocating an open door policy. But I am frustrated at the mistruths being spread about boat people and immigrants generally. Our pollies use them as footballs to show how tough they are and how weak other side is. The bottom line for me is that we jail these people for escaping their unfortunate lot in life and that is not good enough. Somewhere we need to retain our basic human goodness and compassion (the fabled "fair go") in this debate and I just dont see it happening. A bunch of unaccompanied 13-16 yo's are being shipped off to Baxter. I have kids that age, they dont deserve to be jailed for fleeing for thier lives. Jail should be reserved for those who commit crimes that put the rest of the population in peril.

The debate about what Australia can comfortably hold as a population is a really important one to have but just imagine if there is a big crisis in Indonesia, a civil war or volcanic eruption. Indonesians will flee to the next safe place, Australia. People flee conflicts. There are boats crossing the Mediterranean every day. There are huge problems with boat people in Italy and Malta. The Southern half of the USA has thrived for generations on illegal labour from Mexico and Latin America. I really dont see any way it can be stopped. Its the price of having poor neighbours.

[Waldo]

There was a very interesting discussion on Q&A last night, and one of the panel members really surprised me, and that was Carr.

He and others, like the point I'm trying to make and others here are trying to get across.

Immigration and the levels of it with Dudds dream of 56 million people by 2050 has to be tied to infrastructure and what our country can support, inclusive of cultivatable lands, water etc.

Forget the emotion of it we have to look at the facts. And if we want a certain level of immigration then we have to look at infrastructure.

I'd like to do buy a great big drum sander, but without achieving certain things it is just pie in the sky - same thing.

[hughie]

I really dont see any way it can be stopped. Its the price of having poor neighbours.

Love him or hate him, John Howard stopped the boat people from arriving. It can be stopped and controlled.

What I don't appreciate is the fact that some of, if not many of these people throw away their ID papers on nearing Australia. If they are such good and worthwhile people, one would question the need to do this.

Now before howls start, there have been many in the past ie Viet Namese who arrived with minimal ID and got excepted. The Viet Namese did not pose a threat with their ideology or politics.

It is those who pose a threat to the culture and way of life here that are the cause for concern. Some cultures make no bones about seeking to change this country to what they deem better or best and boast of dates on this successfully happening ie dates I have heard of are 2022 and 2036.

[Sturdee]

Interesting discussion.

As I arrived in this country a long time ago as a legal immigrant from Holland my view on the subject is very simple.

Australia has every right to decide who and how many people can come and live here, the same as every other country does. When we set quotas on the type and number of immigrants and the procedures for getting approval to come here they ought to be adhered to.

If they are not, then those people who do not comply with these laws are not suitable immigrants and should permanently be denied entry, and as illegal immigrants, they should be sentenced, serve a term of imprisonment and then deported back to their own country.

IMO people who claim to be refugees but travel through a number of countries to come here are not refugees but illegal immigrants.

So no boat people should be allowed to come here.


Peter.

[damian]

yashinskiy: You have my utmost sympathy. I have had many friends go through the same thing comming here. The time and bureaucracy are unjustifiable.

I will offer two comments though: The government treats citizens exactly the same way. If you ever get entangled with a government department you sink into a mire of stupidity, and this is one of teh things about this country that infuriates me. Second, if immigrants didn't have so many avenues of appeal the immigration department wouldn't need to cover it's backside as much as it does. I am sure you are a reasonable person, but there isa signifigant minority in every society who will take every opportunity afforded them. This is one of the reasons you hear about illegals detained for years, they are exhausting their appeals.

Sebastiaan56:

"Unlike the Palestinians who were the traditional owners of the land they are displaced"

at what point in time ? The ancestors of the jews were in jerusalem 3500 years ago.

"I think a much bigger threat is home grown terrorists such as those being trained in the mosques in our capital cities."

What ? Oh wait, I'm the racist ...

"From what I understand improving living standards and education reduce population growth. Thats where the effort and aid money should be spent IMO."

Yep. Consider yourself in their shoes, australia erupts in war. Would you prefer someone to come and stop the fighting or you to be displaced to another country, language and culture ? Australia is in famine and economic collapse, would you prefer someone to come in and sort it out or to be moved to another country ?

Hughie:

"The Viet Namese did not pose a threat with their ideology or politics."

Sort of. I had the pleasure of knowing and working with some vietnamese immigrants back in the early 80's. Remarkably hard working, intelligent and tolerant. The trouble was within thier ranks were quite a few southern chinese triads who got that branch of organised crime really ramped up in aus. Take a stroll through cabramatta some time, only go armed, even if it's daylight.

Sturdee: Interestingly if you look at unemployment broken down by country of origion the Dutch have long been in the top spot in australia. Not really surprising, high english literacy, compatible culture, strong work ethic, strong educational background.

Nice to see people making arguments rather than abuse. Emotion is good, but being irrational is not the same thing.

[Big Shed]

Sturdee: Interestingly if you look at unemployment broken down by country of origion the Dutch have long been in the top spot in australia. Not really surprising, high english literacy, compatible culture, strong work ethic, strong educational background.

Nice to see people making arguments rather than abuse. Emotion is good, but being irrational is not the same thing.

Huh? They have a strong work ethic and are on top of the unemployment table by country of origin? I think I know what you are trying to say, but that is not what I am reading there

[damian]

I thought about that when I posted it. I suppose it depends on who you put at the top of the list, the lowest rate of unemployment or the highest. A better wording did not occure to me so I ran with it.

The Australian Dutch have the lowest rate of unemployment by ethnicity, or did last I looked. As I recall the Lebanese had the highest, but my memory is not perfect.

Better ? Now just don't attack my spelling

[hughie]

"The Viet Namese did not pose a threat with their ideology or politics."
Sort of. I had the pleasure of knowing and working with some vietnamese immigrants back in the early 80's. Remarkably hard working, intelligent and tolerant. The trouble was within thier ranks were quite a few southern chinese triads who got that branch of organised crime really ramped up in aus. Take a stroll through cabramatta some time, only go armed, even if it's daylight.

point taken, but these lawless elements of the Viet Namese exist in all our immigrants to some extent or another. I was looking at systematic changes being brought about to effectively alter this society to be a carbon copy of another else where, at great expense to this nation as a whole.

The lawless element by and large have no real interest in such changes. Organized crime is just that, organized to max the profit. Our history is littered with such men and women.It seems every nationality has its day in this regard, Irish, Italian, Lebanese and so on.

...And for those who might be wondering, I to migrated to this country from a far less than 30 years ago.