Skills shortage - Mick's solution

[silentC]

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it

[Daddles]

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it

Nah, go mad now and avoid the rush

Richard

[RufflyRustic]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.
Journeyman Mick said, back at the beginning of this thread,
"a smart asred, know it all teenager with no skills and no job and teach them all that I know (or at least all they're willing to learn) "

How about a female, willing to shut up, listen and learn or re-learn the better way to do wood cabinetry, with 3 years wood experience, 90% self-taught....

You know, I'd very happily give up my computer job, become an apprentice, soak up the wood knowledge and experience and get into it. However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block, but that's my humble opinion. If I could earn enough and get enough work in, I'd even consider setting up my own business, but then it wouldn't be my passion anymore.

I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money away from my wood work and family. My husband has no degrees and yes, earns more than I do.

Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.

Just my 1 Cent.

cheers
RufflyRustic

[Harry72]

Noticed some of you mentioned the dole bludgers don't want to work.
Some dole bludgers do have a story to tell,

I think in my very own case it was depressing catch22, back in the late 80's early 90's in the the aftermath of the "recession that we had to have".

Back then after leaving school in 86 I tried very hard to get a apprenticeship, I did course after course but it didn't make any change because all the course's that actually could help you get a apprenticeship cost money that I didn't have.

Living in a smaller town didn't help, I could have moved to the city... but in those days I could not have survived in the big city the dole paid barely enough to live on... and having no relatives there didn't help, you got to think its pretty hard for a 16yr old to live by him/herself in a place you were not brought up in.

At school I got very good marks in all subjects, wanted to go to uni and become a architect I had all the credentials good math and excelled in art and tech studies.
The problem was money there was no way I could afford it, my parents could not afford to send me and there was no part time jobs around that I could work at that time, because they were all taken up by the people who had been laid off from their fulltime jobs(recession).
At this time Austudy was just starting... they said my parents earnt to much for me to qualify even though my fathers wage from the EWS was barely above the poverty line!

Well I ended up in the city, still couldn't get a real job I was there for 12mths and scored a job at jeans factory, but I couldn't work there because the acid washing in clorine process they used gave me bad dermitis(and I still am suffering because of it), then I had job at a lighting factory(crazy daves)putting light fittings together.
They decided that they wouldn't pay me and a friend of mine, so once again I was on my ass and had to shift back with my parents because of the BS that the CES and SS put you through If you left a job... even if the employer didn't pay you!

I got so depressed in those days from all the knock backs and dead ends I just gave up... ended up a long term unemployed nohoper as the saying goes.

So when you say someone is a dole bludger think why are they like that, there may well be a reason why.

I ended up getting a job by chance only, in 94 I decided that the only way I could get a potential employer to even look at me was to reenter the schooling system. I went back to school at the age of 22 and redid yr12 as a mature age student, my grade scores were some of the highest in the state.
But once again I had real money trouble thanks to austudy they expected me to live on $38per fortnight that's real good money considering I was a full time student and living on my own.
Managed to last 2 terms, only because I sold nearly everything I owned to do it. At my tethers end I was ready to give up again, then a bloke at the CES found out that the government was forcing large business's to employ a certain amount of long termers like me. He got on to the local smelter and got me on the list, I did their BS accer tests and passed with ease.
Three months went past didn't hear anything, so I shifted back to the city again within two days of being there I received a call from my mother "you were supposed to start work yesterday!" It turns out some paper shuffler forgot to notify me that I had been accepted in...
I'm still there in the same job, quite happy earning a reasonable living... long service is due now.
I'm still the only long-term unemployed person that they have ever employed, instead they usually take in tradey's of at least 25yrs of age(proved long-term workers)because they need reliable people that will stick there for the rest of their working life's.

The cost of training in my job is phenomenal, because of the OH&S rules when molten metal is concerned a trainee must be supervised at all times, so to train someone they first pay the trainee and then the trainer and then a overtimer to cover the position of the trainer, so to train one it cost about 4 wages(OT is all DT and the average wage is $55k+)plus then they have to get all the licences like crane/rigging/forklift etc etc, too be fully trained and fully effective at the job takes upto 2 yrs and 3 hundred thousand $$$ they estimate.
The big problem they have is they cant just grab a employee from anywhere as we are the only lead smelter in Australia, there nowhere else you can get the training required for this job.

The funny thing is all the blokes(all tradeys) that started at the same time as me have left them high and dry mostly because they didn't like the conditions and couldn't handle the shift work...

[RufflyRustic]

Harry72, gotta give you KUDOS mate! Good on you for sticking it out and winning through.

Cheers
RufflyRustic

[Dusty]

Interesting thread, this one.

Personally, I still think a lot of the problem lies with the actual kids themselves that we put on as apprentices, or juniors, or trainees, call 'em what you will.

They simply aren't that keen on work! Many are unfit, out of condition and the mere thought of a hard days work sees them exhausted before they have even started.

There are many, many spoilt teenagers out there who have had it handed to them on a plate and so therefore have no work ethic to speak of. Lets face it, kids today have so much stuff just given to them by their well to do parents that the urge to work is completly smoothered.

Even have a look inside houses within the so called poverty belt, people at the low end of the financial spectrum and you will find two or three televisions, a computer, X box, PS2, a gazzilion DVD's, possibly a cable TV hook up, a mobile phone or two. The list goes on and these are the so called poorer folk.

As we step up in class we find the same toys, just maybe newer or in better nick, but the same stuff nonetheless.

The point I'm driving at here is why do they need to go and work their butts off, particularly doing manual work in a trade, when they can stay home play with the provided toys, smoke some dope, and drink some beer? I know what I'd rather do given the choice. So I can't blame them on that score.

It's not until they hit their twenties (or later) that the need to earn a living kicks in and they begin to become responsible enough to turn up for work each day and actually put in a decent days toil.

I've hired my fair share of young blokes over the past twelve or so years, and seriously, they are just not worth the hassle, they start of in a blaze of glory doing 'mans work' and a fortnight later there've had a gut full. Next comes the late starts, the days off, the problems with the current squeeze and then the worst part is they don't give a rat's clacker bag about the quality of the work we 'older' tradies are trying to produce.

And, worse still is the mistakes they make, which are often only made through sheer laziness and complete lack of care. These mistakes can and do cost the business owner money, time, or worst of all his reputation. Is it worth the risk, the hassle? I can tell you, I'm over it.

Now, on the plus side, it can be such a rewarding feeling to train someone to do what you do, to teach them skills that can carry your trade into the next era, to help someone out with their financial questions and answer some of their questions about life from an older blokes perspective and experience.
As you might gather from this, I have had some success with a youngster and this kid was brilliant. He learn't fast, he was switched on, he was on time everytime and he had an eye for detail. Unfortunately, he also had an eye for this hot, little, blonde, piece from America. He now lives with her and her family in Boulder, Colorado and is getting married in September. Damn it.

So, the answer is. Somehow we teach our next generation the value of good, honest work from the age of sixteen. Or, we begin apprenticeships from age twenty five, just when they might be getting their stuff together.

Until then I'll stick with the older guys who I can get a decent days work out of.

[maglite]

After reading my first post and being surprised at the height of my rant.....Castlemaine Brewery and his dozen little friends have a lot to answer for .
Seriously tho, When i said force i should have said, encourage, and it seems to me that there is no accountability anymore.No one is prepared to give a stuff because in a lot of cases they simply dont have to.
Case in point: I employed a guy (30 years old) last week,great references and a really strong work ethic(according to his current employer).
He said he really needed extra work as his other part time job wasnt enough, so i put him on.
He worked Monday and Tuesday last week and that is the last time i have seen him, apparently (according to his mother) the work wasnt for him.....he was working 3 hours a day:eek: . Ok i realise that you have got to like what you are doing, but what gives me the S**TS is that i didnt even get a phone call to say that he wasnt interested.....i doubt that Centrelink will call either.
It took 2 hours of inductions just so he could get on site and about all he did was make me and my business look stupid in front of my clients:mad: .
From now on im gonna stick with people my age and older......the younger ones arent worth the hassles.

[Harry72]

Just because 1 or 2 lazy people dont want to earn money because it involves some self sacrifice, dont label all like that.
As that was one of the reasons I had so much trouble in my younger years, because no one would give me a go in the 1st place. I couldnt get a trade type job because they wanted previous expirence, how can you get it without them giving you a go in the 1st place.
They had so many people to choose from back then, it took a uni degree to get a job at Macca's.

I think when employing the younger generation, that if you stick by them for a few years and put up with the crap... you'll end up with a good worker as respect is earnt over time not in a instant.

This is what I think could help,
High school students should under go a test of some sort to find out,
1. what skills they are best at learning
2. what mentality they have, as in physical, social, civil(no point training a non phyisical person to do say a brickys job...)
3. what the actual student wants to do... put them through 3 or 4 weeks of each trade they choose on the job, so as to make sure thats what they want to do.

Once they asitain what skills/job suit they should be trained towards these trades, ie if the student is good with social/academic skills and doesnt like physical they could be trained in management, polictical or IT even. The next student has good hands on/techinical skills doesnt mind physical but doesnt have very good social/academic skills they could be the bricky , mechanic or even a architect if they have the mental capability.

Once at the end of the high schooling years students should be retested and given several options/job types that they can follow...
Once they decide,
Trade apprentices/ scholarships should not be trained by private/corprate buisness, they should be trained in proper establisments by the government... then buisnesses should pay a 1 time fee to obtain the new fully "trained to a set spec" employee.

Maglite
What your saying is the very reason my place of work(600+ non-staff employees) will not employ process operators under the age of 28, apprentices start at 16 tho... their cheaper to train and can be replaced easily!

[Gingermick]

becoming a compassionate society

Sorry to be picky but isn't it spelt compa$$ionate?
Mick

[sinjin1111]

One area where a few trades people have gone apparently to the dole office is. Guys paying child support and being driven into the ground.
I was listening to parliament the other day when a poly said that something like 70% of all working class men who were paying child support are now on the dole.
That has to be a huge number and i'm guessing an awful lot are trades men wanting to work but can't becuase of the way the system works. It makes you wonder how the Gov. can bring in trades people from overseas at a cheaper rate than wanting to solve this problem of getting more back into the work force. Surely they can't all not want to work
Sinjin

[Peter57]

I enjoy reading the board and probably don't write enough, but this thread has got me thinking. In other parts fo the board we hear something like "the government should keep out of.....(insert the topic of conversation)"

Here we say the government should be responsibility for training apprentices, it's not the job of tradespeople. There's a logical disconnect.

Who gave most of you tradies the training you needed, some bloke with a business to run and a desire to pass the skills on to the next generation. Sure some were trained by bigger industries that had carpenters shops, fitters shops etc. Those days are gone. Most of that work is sub contracted out. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's life in 2005.

In the past there were still a lot of blokes who took on apprentices outside of those larger companies. Where are they now?

Then there is the arguement that the average tradies can't afford to train an apprentice because it's too costly (i.e he won't make enough money in the year) but then a larger company that makes a decision not to train apprenticed, based on profit (i.e they won't make enough money in the year) they are railed against. Again, I can't see the logic.

I think there are many reasons for employing apprentices and trainees, none of them have short term economic impact but they are essential for the long term health of a business. In every company I have worked with over the past few years I have encouraged interaction with the universities to help new students get a break and some useful experience. (don't go all tradesman elitist on me here. In most fields a uni degree is just a higher level trade course - maybe not a trade using hand tools but a trade none the less)

Then we have the arguement that kids these days aren't much chop.

Let me ask you all out there this question "how good were you when you started?" How many times did the boss give you a clip around the ear? How many times did you turn up for work after a hard weekend celebrating and still feeling a little seedy? I don't think things have changed too much. In my case I would say that I made a few silly mistakes, but my bosses were tolerant enough to cut me a little slack and give me guidance.

Over the past few 10 -15 years I've been privelaged to train some students, help a few of them get work experience, summer jobs, worked supervising honours theses, etc. Some are good some are lazy (I gave my mates son summer work once - never again!). But in most cases the kids want to learn and even those with bad attitudes can be helped to learn - it just takes a little more effort.

I have 3 of my own. 2 at Uni and one still in school. Do they like work - not particularly. Will they work hard? I hope so. All I hope is that somebody out there will give them an opportunity and be as patient with them as I hope they will be with the next generation.

So let's not blame others for the lack of the next generation in our particular area of skill. Let's see what we can do to promote our trade and encourage others to pusrsue it. Then do something pro-active about training others.

[lash]

I'm looking for a carpentry apprenticeship, eager to work and willing to learn.
I'm at TAFE doing a prevoc woodtrades course. In a fewweeks when I've finished the course I will have completed the first 6 of 18 weeks of trade school for the first year of my apprenticeship (be it Caprentry, Joinery or cabinetmaking) .. which I've paid for myself.
I've got a green card ticket done restricted height scaffolding, and done some onsite work building veranda's.
I can't get the dole so your solution doesn't help me out, Mick.
Still I have a better idea of how the employer feels about taking on apprentices.
How do they feel about taking on female apprentices???

[journeyman Mick]

Lash,
I wouldn't have a problem with the apprentice's gender, but it's a very male dominated industry and there's probably plenty out there who wouldn't dream of taking on a female apprentice. When I was working at the boatbuilding yard I pushed the foreman to take on a female boilermaker apprentice. She was keen and energetic and her work put a lot of others to shame, it amde a lot of the blokes pick up their game.

One issue is strength, there's no two ways about it, the male body is inherently stronger than a females on a kilo for kilo of muscle basis. Working as a cabinet maker or joiner this won't be too much of an issue but carpentry work (framing) is really hard on the body. I'm only 1680 high and about 80kg and I often struggled. Dragging green hardwood battens up onto a roof for a few hours in the tropical heat is a killer. I've got a worn out shoulder, dodgy lower back and recurrent tendon problems in both my forearms and I'm only 43.

Having said that though, from what I've seen I reckon that a carpentry apprenticeship will give you a broader base than cabinetmaking or joinery apprenticeship, giving you more options to pursue. This is only based on the people I've dealt with and quality of skills and knowledge that they have ended up with. All the best with your search for employment.

Mick

[Schtoo]

Sorry. Maybe I am part of the problem here, as I am no longer in Oz doing my part. Was a sparky before I left.

Then again, for 40 hours a week there, I would take home maybe $700.

20 hours a week here, and take home a little bit more. Hourly rate is only a little bit higher here and that much cash has the same buying power here as it does there for day to day living.

So in effect, nothing has really changed money wise for me.

If you suspect that I think there is something drastically wrong with the tax system, you might be right.

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Lash

Go for it - find all the shops and builders in your area and go see them. If you really want to become an apprentice, then don't let people stop you from realising your dream. Talk with the groups that arrange apprenticeships and see what they can do for you.

Mick's made some sound comments - I'm sure others here would be able to provide some hints and tips for getting an apprenticeship.

Please let us know how it goes.

Cheers
RufflyRustic - Wendy