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8th December 2014, 10:54 AM #46SENIOR MEMBER
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I'm not engaging in any extended debate about that lathe. One look at the picture and a glance at the specifications below tells me all I need to know. There are so many inadequacies in what I see that frankly I'm at a loss to know where to start. It reminds me - badly - of those supposed 3 in 1 machine tools that purported to be lathes, mills and drills all in one. Usually they performed none of those jobs even adequately.
If that lathe suits someone's needs, wonderful. That leaves real machine tools for the rest of us.
If there was one feature I'd love the vBulletin developers to add to the software, it'd be an 'ignore thread' feature. Thank God for the rules on PM.
PDW
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10th December 2014, 02:18 PM #47GOLD MEMBER
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11th December 2014, 11:58 AM #48SENIOR MEMBER
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There's a hell of a long history of the inadequacies of those machines. Every so often people want to thrash it out all over again and it's boring. The machines have fundamental design flaws. Nothing can correct them, it's as simple as that. It's one of the reasons home hobby level machines are totally banned from discussion on PM.
Yes, some people can do good work with them. That's a tribute to the skill of the worker over the inadequacies of the machine.
FWIW I'm not just singling out Chinese made machines. I think that Myford small lathes are one of the most overrated lathes of all time with the small South Bends and their clones (Hercus) a close second. If it's all you can get (or afford), fine. Not everyone can have a 10EE (you b*****d Richard).
But keep in mind I generally work on stuff from the size of my hand to the size of a 40' container. If you work on tiny stuff, a Myford might be perfect, if it's as new. Just their pricing is insane when you consider what else you can get for the dollars.
PDW
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11th December 2014, 01:02 PM #49GOLD MEMBER
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Hi PDW,
That's fair enough. Usually if I find a thread "boring", I just don't contribute. I do realise that these type of threads quickly get dispatched if they appear on PM. I should pull my finger out and join up and have a gander but you guys would probably eat me alive on that forum!
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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11th December 2014, 03:37 PM #50Cba
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PDW, there are those of us like you making a living working with items up to container size work pieces, and therefore mainly interested in industrial size machine tools. And there are those of us making small items not for profit, and therefore mainly interested in small and less expensive hobby class machine tools. Given some tolerance, it should be possible for both groups to coexist on one group?
Regarding your comments about Myfords and Southbends, you may reconsider. If you ever lived in an apartment maybe on 7th floor, you would know there are limits to what size machine tools fit in a 1 square meter elevator. A 100kg and 3/4HP lathe like a Myford is the maximum that your neighbors are going to put up with noise and vibrations. I for example spent the best part of 20 years running lathes smaller than a Myford, first inside apartments, later in a spare bedroom of my home, and only very recently in the garage.
Your argument about pricing is flawed. Small but accurate lathes are quite often more expensive that larger ones. Just think of how much Schaublin lathes cost. But also less prestigious brands. Especially good quality used small lathes often cost more than brand new large/heavy lathes. If you mostly work with large workpieces, you may not easily understand why this is so and shake your head.
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11th December 2014, 06:21 PM #51Philomath in training
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I tend to agree. While they may be serviceable machines and perfectly matched in some situations I think a mystique has grown up around some of these brands that has exceeded the reality. I fully appreciate Chris's comment about size and if I were in a small apartment I'd probably think that they were ideal too, but at the same time there is a lot of history built into their appeal.
Same thing applies in other fields - everyone goes on about Spitfires but there were other equally good aircraft flying in WW2 that did not catch the public's imagination. Still good though.
Back closer to topic - hobby machines are made to a price. Part of the learning involved is (sub-consciously) coping with the inadequacies of the machine. As someone who is not trade trained, I need all the help I can get in producing a serviceable part. I've used ex-industrial machines for several years now and suspect that if I had to go to a hobby machine I would be able to cope a lot better with their shortcomings because of that experience. I would also be more frustrated I suspect as I would find the rigidity, the vibration, the capacity and the features would contribute to make things harder than they should be.
For a first machine I would not be buying new as you are paying for shine. I would be buying something of reasonable size (say 7x20 or slightly bigger) as it will be more rigidity. Similarly I would not be going the lathe/mill combination as there are too many compromises made to accommodate the milling function. Needing repairs is fine as that way you learn how they are constructed. A lathe is a basic machine. If you are interested in metal turning then you should have the mechanical ability to repair the machine. Bed wear can be nasty but then again, it's a mechanical problem that gives you an appreciation of what a machine does/ needs. At the end of the day while it is satisfying to make a parallel shaft that a uniform diameter all the way along, when I first started I was lucky to get a short diameter to within 0.3mm of where I wanted it (invariably I took too much off). There are plenty of things to learn without needing that accuracy (one being how to get that accuracy on a worn bed).
Michael
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11th December 2014, 10:34 PM #52Cba
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I do not believe that hobby machines are "made to a price". Not more than industrial machines are "made to a price". Some hobby machines are made to a price, just like some industrial machines are. There are hobbylathes of far higher quality, accuracy and cost than many "industrial" lathe. Just look at something like an Emco Super11, it would not at all look astray in a toolroom.
The definition of a hobbylathe is not simply "cheap and nasty". But like with everything else, you get what you pay. I have not yet seen a list of specifications outlining what a hobbylathe is. But if I had to write one down, that is what would come to mind:
- bench lathe
- less than 200kg in weight
- able to last a lifetime for the average hobby user - about the equivalent of 1 to 2 year lifespan in industrial use? Or about 2000 hours running time?
- meet the basic pre-WW2 Schlesinger standards for lathes when new and properly installed (if it does not, then its not a hobbylathe but rather a toy)
Notice that price is not in my list. There always were and still are some hobbyusers that are prepared to pay 10 and 15k$ for a lathe that is precise and a joy to use.
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13th December 2014, 11:10 AM #53GOLD MEMBER
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Hi CBA,
I notice you mention weight but not size. My 12x36 must weight in excess of 450 - 500Kg yet you think it's not a hobby lathe? I can't imagine it would be used in industry though. Conversely, I can't imagine a 12x36 or even a 9x20 weighing less than 200Kg would be much chop so surely size must come into it.
Are there seriously people out there that would pay $15,000 for a "hobby lathe" that weighs less than 200 Kg? Edit: Man I'm seriously in the wrong job!
I guess it ultimately comes down to your (or other peoples) definition of a "hobby lathe"
Cheers,
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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13th December 2014, 03:50 PM #54
Just to throw a dissenting opinion into the mix, my son has a Lorch watchmakers lathe, small light, and very precise bit of engineering, just because a lathe is small doesn't automatically make it useless. In fact I'll go a step further, and
say that some machining jobs are only possible on smaller lathes.. http://www.lathes.co.uk/lorchwatchmaker/
It's currently in Austria, but maybe one day it will come to Australia and I'll be happy to have a play with it.
Back to the TL250V... I personally wouldn't touch it.. but if you like it go ahead..
The TL250V and that class of lathes, are often using DC motors and simple variable speed drive electronics, if you do go down that track, make sure the electronics are repairable at reasonable cost..
I recall repairing the controls on a similar lathe years ago, the thing blew up when the guy switched from forward to reverse at full speed... pop.. blue smoke...
Ray
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14th December 2014, 09:20 AM #55
Have you noticed wrist watch ads? Some of those cost hundreds of thousands. Have a look at the hunting rifles out there in a similar price range. Then look at cars.........
Do you know how many new millionaires popped up in China in the last year?
There are people out there who would ignore a $15G machine because it is cheap. Why? So they can impress their peers mostly.
Not really relative to this discussion.
In relation to lathe/mill combos. My mate had/has one about 500mm BC. I tried drilling with it. Very hard going. I had built (this was long ago) a press to fit my electric hand drill. It was pretty crude. Version 2 is still out in the imp shed gathering rust. It has racks and a gear drive. Last used for capping bottles of home brewed cider. Anyway the old drill press did a far better and easier job of drilling.
Dean
Dean
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14th December 2014, 10:22 AM #56Cba
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Dean,
- to a truckie it is madness, if someone buys a Porsche when for the same money he could have a 90 Ton rig.
- to someone wanting a second car for pleasure only, it would be inconceivable to drive a road train.
- likewise, try to make a clock on a 500kg lathe. You may even succeed if the lathe is a very good one, but I can guarantee that it will not be a pleasant experience. Just like it won't be fun taking out the semitrailer to a mountain road.
Where do you think do all the Myfords and Hercus and Emco etc etc on the second hand market come from? It was not industry to buy them when they were new. Many of them DID once cost, in today's money, 7, 10, 12 and up to 15k$. I believe to earn the money to buy a Myford 30 years ago, one had to work as many hours as today (the last Myfords two years ago did indeed cost more than $10k without any accessories and options). My Hercus 260 did cost over 8K in the late 90's. A 170kg Emco Super11 does sell today, 10 years after the last one was made, for over $7k. Most of these owners did hide away their love in a shed or garage where they would have spent evenings and weekends alone.
Personally, I can see nothing wrong with someone spending his/her hard earned money today on a new high quality hobbylathe.
In relation to lathe / mill combos, you get what you pay for. Emco used to make very good 3in1 machines (the Super11 was a 3in1 lathe), the German Golmatic is still made today. But if you are only looking at the badly made Chinese copies of the not-so-well-designed American Shopsmith 3in1, then no wonder you come to hate 3in1's.
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14th December 2014, 02:02 PM #57