Getting a better Energy deal - WHAT A JOKE!

[FenceFurniture]

Delete.

What happened to the delete post button?

[FenceFurniture]

Anyone here willing to answer questions?

We've already wandered a fair way off topic - perhaps start another thread for that.

[Sturdee]

Brett, while I readily accept your problems with AGL my experience with them was totally different.

I am with them for both gas and electricity and last year I was on a discount of 18 % for gas and 25 % for electricity. As I noticed others were advertising higher discounts of 20 and 30 % and $ 50 sign on bonus I rang them and asked if they could go higher. Immediately they offered 20 and 30 % and when pressed for the sign on bonus they gave the alternative of 20 and 35 %. As the higher discount was more then our first quarter I was happy with that the extra discount keeps going on and on.

Also AGL gives Flybuy points which over a year adds up to a $ 30 savings in my wife's shopping.

So one phone call is all it took for me to get what I want as I got higher discounts then currently available with actually the same rates for usage as the other companies.

Peter.

[FenceFurniture]

Peter there is no doubt that my AGL experience has been "one out of the box", with some other cockups thrown in for good measure (like my meter not being on the database - that was where things went off the rails).

I am equally sure that plenty of people have had poor experiences with all the different retailers. What it came down to was how AGL handled it - and that was extremely poorly indeed.

Having said all that, the main point here is what we have to go through - with ANY retailer - to get a better deal. I believe that they should be compelled to offer everyone the same deal, whatever that may be and whatever they think they need to do to be competitive. They may not be able to afford to offer everyone a 32% discount on elec (or maybe they can.....), but they can quite obviously afford to offer everyone 25%, but are not until we complain, so what about the poor buggers who aren't in on the joke, like my mother, or who do not have the skills to screw out the best deal (or the damned patience and persistence)?

Fizza says that he has secured an agreement with them that they will write to 2 million households who could be on a better deal. I'll bet that they don't offer the highest (pre-retention) discounts to them though - in the hope that they'll be grateful for being offered a little more than they were getting and will happily accept less than they could bargain for.

Let's face it, this current circus must be costing them all a fortune in human resources with the amount of time they must be spending on the phone. Bloody ridiculous way to run a business if you ask me.

[Lappa]

Sturdee, if you don’t mind me asking, what are you charges for;

Electricity - kWh and supply
Gas - MJ and supply.

It would appear different postcodes have different rates so it would be interesting to see actual costs.
You can PM me if you prefer.

I’ve been with AGL since Adam was a boy and the best they have done for me was 5% on the Electricity but that was some time ago. Guess I need to have a chat with them
I used to get a discount for paying on time by BPay but I got an account keeping fee but when I went to direct debit to avoid the fee, they said I couldn’t have the discount because they couldn’t be sure that the payment would be made on time - go figure??

[Bushmiller]

You wonder why AGL wanted out of Coal with Hazelwood/Liddell/etc? It has exactly zero to do with anti-coal. They are doing it for they know their companies have been tied to the post and given their cigarette. They know that if they are stuck with that white elephant they are doomed. They will sell it to the government who will proceed to burn everyone slowly alive with spectacular financial mismanagement. AGL et.al. will, of course, wring their hands in consternation in public, but it will be high-fives behind the doors.

WP

Just in the interests of accuracy, Liddell is indeed owned by AGL (They bought Liddell and Bayswater as a package), but Hazelwood is owned by the French company Engie, who also own Pelican Point. Pelican Point and Hazelwood have had their own controversies. Pelican Point is a two unit gas fired station. They had been running two units at half load. Realising this was uneconomic, they moth balled one unit, removed it from the system and ran the remaining unit at full load. When SA had a power crisis they were criticised for not restarting the unit: They couldn't. No fuel and no presence on the schedule.

Hazelwood, which is a very old brown coal station was one of the dirtiest stations in the world, certainly the dirtiest in Australia. Unfortunately Victoria's base load power is based on brown coal stations. However this is a small digression for which I apologise.

The crux of all this is that if you want a competitive market and one that encourages (deliberately) private enterprise, you cant' then turn around and say "that's unfair" or "that's not what we want you to do." In other words you can't have it both ways.

In the retail market there are similar issues. Once you can approach different companies to lock in a better deal to some extent you cannot complain (other than poor performance on a specific instance such as Brett experienced). Of course some people are better shoppers than others. Brett is the electrical retailers worst nightmare while they hope that the majority of their customers are like Brett's mum. In time the better companies will endure and the poor companies will fade away just like with a supermarket, but the rub is that generally we are not so conversant with the intricacies of electricity supply as we are with buying a kilo of bacon.

A competitive market in the electrical generation field has reversed the focus from continuity of supply to price. This is what the governments of both callings have wanted: They should heed the old mantra "Be careful what you wish for."

Regards
Paul

[Sturdee]

I'm on the rates applicable to Metropolitan Victoria, I know that country and interstate are different as we all have smart meters (and paid for) which will now be introduced nationally.

However here are my rates:

Electricity

Peak 25.05 c per KWH, HWS 16.79 c per KWH and supply charge $ 1.1047 per day all plus GST.

Discount 35 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.

Gas

First 2950 MJ is at $0.02315, next 2950 MJ is at $ 0.02013, next 2950 MJ is at $ 0.01604, next 5900 MJ is at $ 0.01387 and then the rest is at $ 01292.
Supply charge is at $0.7413 per day all plus GST.

Discount 20 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.


I get my bills emailed and pay by direct debit and the discount is actually called a pay on time discount.

Of course as I'm an old fellow I also get the Victorian government winter energy allowance on gas and HWS electricity use and the Commonwealth government pensioner rebate.

Trust that this helps.

Peter.

BTW AGL will, if you are on emailed bills and pay by direct debit, give you FlyBuy points on the total amounts paid which in our case gives $ 30 of free grocery shopping a year at Coles. But again you have to ask for this.

[FenceFurniture]

Electricity

Peak 25.05 c per KWH, HWS 16.79 c per KWH and supply charge $ 1.1047 per day all plus GST.

Discount 35 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.

Here we go again with yet another way to slice up the cat, and come to the same damned result. When I put those rates into my spreadsheet and using my kWh, lo and behold, at $1238 per year it comes in at third place, just behind the AGL Retention rates (32%) at $1196 per year, and $1161 for the Origin Retention rates that I am getting.

This is despite Sturdee getting one of the highest off-peak rates of 16.79, and I think THE highest supply charge of $1.1047, because he also gets THE highest discount I've seen at 35%.

Fair dinkum, it's just bullsh. Obviously these twats work backwards from the $1238 figure with the mantra of
"ok, Sturdee's postcode has to be different to work out but give us the same bottom line....."
"Uhh, why? Why don't we use the same rates is next door?"
"Coz it's energy prices dummy! They have to be different and difficult, other wise people will know what we do - make money for jam."
"But doesn't that cost us more in admin?"
"Relaaaax, the poor sodding customer pays for that too. Relax and enjoy the party"

Peter, another data question if I may: did you have a frightening rise on July 1, mainly in the off-peak rate? I'll wager that your rates were something like 22c/10c/$1 prior to July 1.

[Sturdee]

THE highest supply charge of $1.1047,

The supply charge, whilst high, I think is the same all Victoria as it covers the supply network and the on going repayment of the smart meters that Victoria installed at the consumers houses. This was also affected by the bush fires payout. This rate is set by the government and not the retailer.

The smart meters charge will affect other states soon as the government will start to introduce them nationwide in December, so prepare yourself for another shock.

Incidentally there was no increase in rates or supply charge in July for me and the rates were the same as is available here from Origin Energy and other suppliers according to my internet searches, using 15 postcodes around Melbourne, at the time.


Peter.

[FenceFurniture]

After reading this article on Smart Meters I'm having difficulty in seeing much, if any benefit to consumers. Seems to be more for the Energy Cos, in that they don't have to send around meter readers.

At the moment I'm pretty sure the our Off-Peak (Controlled Load 1) is only for the Hot water service. If a smart meter means that I can use CL1 power for other things (anything consuming elec overnight) then yes there would be a small benefit. Out of the list of "energy guzzlers" that they nominate, only the washing machine would apply to us.

I doubt the neighbours would appreciate me running the thicky/DE overnight.....

[Sturdee]

The main benefit of smart meters is for the energy companies, who apart from not requiring meter readers, can switch of power remotely to either a meter or specific appliances in your house if you go to special rates. It also allows them to offer different rates for different times of the day.
These are not relevant to me but I had and am still paying for the compulsory installation of them.

[fletty]

I have only recently retired from this industry and can confirm that, as evidenced by all of the earlier posts, it is an incredibly complex business model and, within that complex model, large and diverse components of it, are contrived to suit various political and social needs. The discussions in the posts above are like studying the very end of a dog's wagging tail and, by that, trying to understand the dog itself?
At this point it is worth introducing the term 'arbitrage'. Arbitrage can be likened to legalised gambling and this is a constant that runs right through this complex model.
This whole model starts with forecasting and buying forward. To create these forecasts, this industry is one of the largest industrial users of pure mathematicians in the country. Their role is to create models that predict future power consumption in incredible detail, complexity and accuracy. It takes into account temperature, time of day, day of the week, season, socio-economic circumstance etc, and I'll discuss just one of many examples of this. On (say) a 40 degree day, the power consumed in a single hour can vary by a factor of up to 10 fold. If the 40 degree hour is at 2 to 3pm on a Sunday in early Summer after a cooler prior day then the power consumed would be 1 UNIT per customer. IF however the 40 degree hour is on a Wednesday between 5 and 6pm after a series of 40 degree days, then the power consumed across the same socio- economic group would be at least 10 UNITS per customer. A different socio-economic group can apply a further multiplier of up to 4. So, let's say you are a retailer, the weather bureau forecasts a 40 degree day, your mathematicians go to work and forecast a power usage of 32.845 MILLION UNITS ( being somewhere between 1 and 40!) for 2 - 3pm. Your purchasing group then go to the market to buy 32.845 MILLION UNITS of power for that hour which might be in 2 hours time.
Now, as a retailer, you know that the mix of your industrial, residential and commercial customers pay an average of $15 per unit for 2 - 3 pm on a Wednesday so your aim is to buy from the generators at a price of less than $15 per unit because the difference will be your profit.
Now, let's say you are one of the multiple generators that this retailer will approach to buy the power for an hour in 2 hours time. You don't know that the retailer is trying to purchase an entire package at less than an average of $15 per unit. As you can see above, I am using anonymous UNITS but my real World experience is that, in relative terms, generators can, and do, offer power at NIL to $10,000 per UNIT for fixed amounts. So, the retailer WHO MUST BUY 32.845 MILLION UNITS tries to buy across all of these offers to get a total of 32.845 MILLION UNITS at less than $15 per UNIT. Traditionally, base load power stations will offer a low price to encourage retailers to buy enough to enable them to keep running their plant continuously and at an efficient operating level because they can't ramp up or down easily. However, 'peaking plant' CAN turn on and off quickly but costs more to generate so they will offer in the middle range of prices but for a smaller volume. Now, let's look at the generator who sells at $10,000 per UNIT to a retailer who can only sell to their customer at $15 per UNIT. This doesn't appear to make any sense but, if the retailer can't get 32.845 MILLION UNITS from other sources, then they MUST buy enough at $10,000 to top up their quantity or they face crippling penalties both commercially and reputationally because there will be blackouts. Is $10,000 a real World number? YES! There is a hydro generator in Australia who can offer power at that sort of price. If a retailer needs them to generate, they push a button, release the water, generate the required units for the required time and then stop. Later, when the high load period has passed, THE GENERATOR will buy power from another ( say) base load generator at say $12 per UNIT and pump the water back up to a high reservoir to await the next high load period and repeat the process at ( say) $10,000 per UNIT again!

Jetlag is setting in so I'll stop for now and continue later this week if anyone is interested. If not, I'll go back to wood work?

(recently returned) fletty

[NCArcher]

Like the hydro generator Fletty mentioned, there is a private power station in the Hunter Valley that is diesel fired. They charge probably more than the Hydro plant but only have to run for a very short time each year to make money.
Welcome home Mr Flett

[Chris Parks]

I have only recently retired from this industry and can confirm that, as evidenced by all of the earlier posts, it is an incredibly complex business model and, within that complex model, large and diverse components of it, are contrived to suit various political and social needs. The discussions in the posts above are like studying the very end of a dog's wagging tail and, by that, trying to understand the dog itself?
At this point it is worth introducing the term 'arbitrage'. Arbitrage can be likened to legalised gambling and this is a constant that runs right through this complex model.
This whole model starts with forecasting and buying forward. To create these forecasts, this industry is one of the largest industrial users of pure mathematicians in the country. Their role is to create models that predict future power consumption in incredible detail, complexity and accuracy. It takes into account temperature, time of day, day of the week, season, socio-economic circumstance etc, and I'll discuss just one of many examples of this. On (say) a 40 degree day, the power consumed in a single hour can vary by a factor of up to 10 fold. If the 40 degree hour is at 2 to 3pm on a Sunday in early Summer after a cooler prior day then the power consumed would be 1 UNIT per customer. IF however the 40 degree hour is on a Wednesday between 5 and 6pm after a series of 40 degree days, then the power consumed across the same socio- economic group would be at least 10 UNITS per customer. A different socio-economic group can apply a further multiplier of up to 4. So, let's say you are a retailer, the weather bureau forecasts a 40 degree day, your mathematicians go to work and forecast a power usage of 32.845 MILLION UNITS ( being somewhere between 1 and 40!) for 2 - 3pm. Your purchasing group then go to the market to buy 32.845 MILLION UNITS of power for that hour which might be in 2 hours time.
Now, as a retailer, you know that the mix of your industrial, residential and commercial customers pay an average of $15 per unit for 2 - 3 pm on a Wednesday so your aim is to buy from the generators at a price of less than $15 per unit because the difference will be your profit.
Now, let's say you are one of the multiple generators that this retailer will approach to buy the power for an hour in 2 hours time. You don't know that the retailer is trying to purchase an entire package at less than an average of $15 per unit. As you can see above, I am using anonymous UNITS but my real World experience is that, in relative terms, generators can, and do, offer power at NIL to $10,000 per UNIT for fixed amounts. So, the retailer WHO MUST BUY 32.845 MILLION UNITS tries to buy across all of these offers to get a total of 32.845 MILLION UNITS at less than $15 per UNIT. Traditionally, base load power stations will offer a low price to encourage retailers to buy enough to enable them to keep running their plant continuously and at an efficient operating level because they can't ramp up or down easily. However, 'peaking plant' CAN turn on and off quickly but costs more to generate so they will offer in the middle range of prices but for a smaller volume. Now, let's look at the generator who sells at $10,000 per UNIT to a retailer who can only sell to their customer at $15 per UNIT. This doesn't appear to make any sense but, if the retailer can't get 32.845 MILLION UNITS from other sources, then they MUST buy enough at $10,000 to top up their quantity or they face crippling penalties both commercially and reputationally because there will be blackouts. Is $10,000 a real World number? YES! There is a hydro generator in Australia who can offer power at that sort of price. If a retailer needs them to generate, they push a button, release the water, generate the required units for the required time and then stop. Later, when the high load period has passed, THE GENERATOR will buy power from another ( say) base load generator at say $12 per UNIT and pump the water back up to a high reservoir to await the next high load period and repeat the process at ( say) $10,000 per UNIT again!

Jetlag is setting in so I'll stop for now and continue later this week if anyone is interested. If not, I'll go back to wood work?

(recently returned) fletty

Interesting Alan, I now understand how pumped hydro can work, I couldn't see the logic before your post. Please continue after jetlag has subsided.

[rrich]

:d vaseline?

lol!