Unions, loathe em, love em or balance

[Lignum]

There's the problem in a nutshell, Lignum. The 10 staff across the road are very well looked after. If all employers were like that, goodbye unions.

But they're not

25 years in the workforce i have had 2 bad employers.

25 years in the workforce, i couldnt even begin to count the number of "work mates" who have ripped off, stole, manipulated time sheets, faulse sick days etc.

Go figure

[astrid]

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

[m2c1Iw]

Astrid,
I believe both sides of politics have in recent years moved to improve the balance and remove some of the undesirable aspects of union behavior.
There is no doubt that in many industries and companies they provide a voice for employees and work to ensure fair and reasonable conditions.

However when unions over step the mark and resort to bullying and stand over tactics, often merely to further the political ambitions of the officials it is no wonder many members desert and hold them in contempt.

Pity greed and self interest continues to reign in so much of our lives...Hmmm doubt if that will ever change so its up to our governments to make the rules.

At the end of the day I subscribe to the notion of Freedom of association which includes unions so organised labour is a good thing, just make sure their ambitions are reasonable, for the genuine good of members and lawful thanks.
Regards Mike

[astrid]

thanks Mike,
thats the stuff we all need to learn,
my view,and i own a small business, as well as working part time for a big co
is that in an industry where you are replacable because of lack of skills, or a shift in economic value,people need a protected representitive,
elected by the folk they are representing.
Unfortunatly some folk work as outworkers or in companies too small to get that and it is a unions job to help these to fair pay and conditions even if they arnt members.

many unions do this, some dont and should be ashamed.

Astrid

[Geoff Dean]

As I posted in the other discussion.

In 1986 I was working for a printing company that was a non union shop. Everyone was paid above award wages, around $50 per week, which was around 12% above the award, we had very good conditions, were happy with the employer and got on and did a good days work.

The business was sold to the local newspaper which was run to militant union rules. Within 5 minutes of the first day that the new owners were in charge we were visited by the shop steward who told all staff that they had to join the union. Most joined, I resisted.

I was then called to a meeting and told that I had to join or everyone else would be called out on strike. My reply was they could strike as much as they liked, I would turn up to work and get paid while they got no wages, see if I cared. I was told I would not be allowed to enter the premises if I did not join. I had to be restrained from putting said officials head thru a brick wall.

End result was I did not have to join, and the others who had joined then tried to unjoin from union, but were not allowed to do so. I think that they were more peed off about that than me.

The union made sure that everyone who was on over award wages lost those extras. They could not remove them from us, but every CPI or Indexed rise that happened for the next 3 years was not passed on until we were back on the award.

I have only had 3 jobs in 28 years, I left my first job after 8.5 years after the union standover tactics, my second employer was a good employer for 8 years, but then the business started going bad because of his excesses, and I left after 8.5 years also. The business went bellyup about 18 months later so I just got out in time.

I have been with my current employer now for nearly 11 years and in the whole 28 years, apart from 4 years as an apprentice, and 3 months after the union intervention with my first job, I have been paid over the award, currently almost 40% above, and not a single union rep to get that for me, in fact all they have ever wanted to do is have my salary decreased to the award.

My employers have always valued my expertise and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. I have had a few other run ins with unions over the years, but by making them admit that they are not able to get me as good a conditions that I currently have, I have been able to make them leave me alone.

So you can understand why I think that unions are nothing but self serving, blackmailing extortionists, who have probably outlived there usefulness. They may have some relevance, but not while they continue to display the militant tactics that they have in the past.

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly.

Brickie, couldn't agree more, as far as I am concerned, any elected union official that I have had to deal with has been the scum of the earth. Lower than shark poop.

[namtrak]

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

A first year apprentice electrician under workchoices currently earns around $6.5 per hour. Sort of says it all really.

Or as the Vic Govt likes to quote

"Depending on the trade, first year apprentice award wages vary between $14,000 and $19,000 per year, rising with each completed year. The award rate is arguably low while you are learning the trade, but you've got to start somewhere! If you are a reliable apprentice, many employers will pay above-award wages to keep you on the team." Yeh right!

$6.50 per hour is about $260 per week before tax. That would be the rent covered.

[Rossluck]

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

I can assure you astrid, that I always remain civilised. I actually have a lot of respect for the people who write to this forum and for the people who run it.

I'm self employed these days and by rights should have turned against the unions. But I've also felt the powerlessness of being pushed around by a crook employer in times of high unemployment. I get annoyed when people are violently angry towards anything other than peodophiles. I'm pro union, but not in the least bit angry towards employers or people on the right of politics. We need'em.

[astrid]

rossluck ,
Be assured that the "civilized" comment wasnt directed at anyone in particular especially you.
just trying to keep the moderators happy.
Astrid

[astrid]

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

[Brickie]

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

I agree.

Because of all the back breaking effort that I put into my job, I need to be earning at least $1.5 million per year to make it all worth while.

If you can guarantee me that, I will again join the union..

Plus super of course..

[Barry_White]

I have only ever had two encounters with overbearing and sneaky unionists in over 50 years of employment and self employment. My first encounter was about 1973 when I was sub-contracting installing all the the windows in St. Vincents Private Hospital in Sydney. I had been sub-contracting up to this time on several high rise buildings in Sydney and had never encountered a union.

I had been on the job for about a week when the BWU rep came up to me and wanted to see my union ticket. I told him I didn't have one and did not intend to get one. He said to me you can't work on this site without one. My answer was tough. He then threatened me by telling me that they would close the job down which would put 200 men out of work. To which I replied well I don't care I will go and work somewhere else so you can take it up with the management.

I had a contract with the window company and it didn't include being a member of a union. The supervisor from the window company became concerned because of penalties and wanted me to join the union so the upshot was the window company said they would pay the union fees for me and my two men but I said I don't want to join the BWU. So the compomise was I joined the Carpenters and Joiners Union which was toothless tiger anyway. As soon as I finished the job I resigned from the union anyway.

My only other encounter was when I was managing BHP Building Products in Tamworth and the union rep sneaked in the back door and was talking to all the factory staff stopping them from working and I came out and caught him. I asked what he was doing holding up the workers from doing their job. I asked him to leave the premises. This he wanted to argue about and I told him No.1 he should have come in the front door and saw me first and No2 if he wants to talk to them he can come back during their lunch hour or after they have knocked off. The staff were upset with me because they didn't want to talk to him anyway.

My personal opinion unions suck.

[Rossluck]

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

.

Well written.

[watson]

I spent most of my working life (20 years 53 days and 4 hours) in a non-union environment.
Any of my workmates are welcome at my house (even 20 years after retirement)
I trusted them....they trusted me.
We didn't need a union......we had a serious job......and we did it without RDO's, time and a half, penalty rates, and child care.
I am proud to have been a soldier.......so in my polite voice........I can't see the reason for the thread.

You should note that this a personal entry to this thread.........it is not closed/edited/moderated

There ya go!

[wheelinround]

Why is there no unions in the armed forces??

Because when they call strike its work time.


Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.

Astrid have you read the Union hand book you represent?? Have you issued these to your members?? After all they pay for them.

[johnc]

Early in my working life I was in the office (non union) of a factory which required all workers to be union members as it was a closed shop. The union rep was quite good and acted in a positive role between workers and management bringing foreward minor gievances which usually got sorted out without any stress. Sadly he got replaced by an overbearing individual with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Within a very short period he had the factory out on a strike that ran for six weeks, and at the end of it the workers returned with no pay increase and no improvement in conditions. Everyone lost, I think unions do have a very valid role in the work force but it was this type of behaviour that ran unchecked through the seventies and part of the eighties that left a very bad taste in the mouths of many. The reason so many of my generation grew tired of them was their inability to listen to their own members and act in a constructive way, the young can't even see what they do. Unless the union movement can find a role as mediators rather than bover boys then they are doomed to the scrap bin of history which is a shame because they could create a very positive conciliation role in workplace relations if they could just engage their brains for once and move on from 1910.