Is it supposed to be this hard?

[jisk]

Jisk, the lapping part is a long slow process.

Fresh paper will speed it up a bit. With W&D, try water not oil. Some folk use Adalox for the coarse grits.

Yes, the magnetic base helps a lot.

Alternatives? I think Derek has posted on using his grinder-mounted belt sander. Consider a honing disc mounted to a lathe. I've had a go on a portable belt sander mounted in a cradle: no use. I've used diamond stones for part of the process; no faster than W&D but at least you don't have to keep changing the paper.

It's just hard slog. Remember to start coarse and work up through all the grits. With each new grit change the direction you push the cutter so you can easily see any remaining scratches from the last grit.

High carbon steel is a bit quicker.

OK, I'll use water if that'll make it faster. How often should I change the paper?

[jisk]

Tonight was dog obedience night, so I didn't get a chance to get out to the shed, so no report on progress.

In most circumstances, problems come down to blade isn't sharp, too much projection, and in the case of woodies, the wedge not fitting and or too loose.

Even with the tiniest change in project from not cutting to cutting, taking a shaving gets extraordinarily difficult. The blade seems to stay at the depth I set it to so I think the wedge is OK.

Check out that both iron bedding and iron back are clean of chips and dust and such things.

That's something that I haven't checked - thanks for the tip sumu.

Agree entirely. Especially if your new to it all.

Just don't give up Jisk.

On Sunday I really was ready to put planes in the too hard basket and start researching sanders. Which would have been really disappointing as I really want to get these planes going. I've had them sitting around for a couple of months now and haven't really got them into anything.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Edit: Sorry, another question - should I hone a microbevel on these?

[rsser]

How often: depends on how much patience you've got

Fresh W&D cuts quickly but not for long. Then it cuts slower and for long. You'll notice it slowing down. Feel the grit where you've been working the blade and on an untouched edge of the paper and make a judgement.

btw, as Derek said, cover the lapping section of the blade with felt-tip pen, do a pass or three and then see how bad (or good) the back is. If there's lots to do start with 80 grit and then 120 grit and get it flat. Then the higher grits are about getting the marks of the last out and polishing.

Hope this helps.

[sumu]

Hello jisk.

On Sunday I really was ready to put planes in the too hard basket and start researching sanders. Which would have been really disappointing as I really want to get these planes going. I've had them sitting around for a couple of months now and haven't really got them into anything.

Well, I'd say that it will still be kinda never ending trip when playing with planes, not to mention all the other tools you got. Take your time, your planes will develop along your skills.

When that delicate logic behind them opens up a bit, You will look at "the further readings" with a different eye. With this I mean those articles you have probably read already. But now they will open up differently when you have now some comparison with your own doings.

Take a look here: http://www.daikudojo.org/Archive/kez2/PICT0025.JPG Despite I consider myself as a bit more advanced plane tuner and maker than perhaps average, I do not really understand how to constantly achieve that kind of performance. I do not even know should I start to work for such a thing and for what purpose?

Well, despite I have not mastered that level of shavings production (at all, really), I still honestly find nothing to blame in those woodworkings I have done with my tools and how I can use them. They are quite good, because they seem to stay in one piece, fit there where my wife wanted to fit them and smaller ones made a nice presents to someone.

But the main purpose was just to have fun, think something else, with no stress whatsoever. I think there I'm cool .

Have fun, jisk.

[derekcohen]

Sumu

Thin shavings are just a measure of a well-tuned planed with a sharp blade. They can be easily obtained on straight grained softer wood. Try that on a hardwood like Jarrah, whcih has much reversing and interlinked grain!

Like this ...

Jisk

Do not give up. The planes you have are capable of excellent performance. I have a couple of Mujingfangs. They are really the bargain of the century. Concentrate on the primary bevel. You need to grind this on a low grit W&D ... or, try a 80 grit belt sander belt glued to a sheet of glass. This is what I use (I have a bunch of them from an old beltsander). Then go to 240 grit. From there to a 1200 grit (flat) waterstone or 1200 W&D, then 6000 waterstone or 2000 W&D. You can not skip this area on either the back of the blade or the primary bevel. Once you have the initial low grit done, the others get increasingly less demanding. It is only hard to get it flat. Getting it smooth is the easy part.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Groggy]

Not bad Derek, but the finest of shavings only have one side...

That's a great pic to demonstrate a shaving, nicely done.

[Ron Dunn]

Do you have any planes similar to those you might have used in school? Stanleys? Records?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but did you have experience in using planes of this type before you bought them?

I'm wondering if the problem is a lack of experience in general plane usage, made worse by the advanced nature of the tools you are using.

My first plane was a recent Stanley 4. It took me quite a few months to figure out how to use it to get a decent shaving. Now my preferred smoothing plane is an ECE Primus, and I've learned how to make it dance and sing with shavings like Derek showed. Unlike Derek, though, you wouldn't get me near a plane without a screw adjuster if you stuffed the throat with diamonds, because I'm afraid of the co-ordination and experience necessary to properly configure the damned thing.

Perhaps we have a case of a plane too far.

If you do have a more common style of plane, can you get a good shaving on the wood you are using as a test piece?

[sumu]

Hee!

Derek, that is Cool!

What was the particular plane in question?

kippis, indeed.

sumu

[derekcohen]

Here is an 8 foot shaving with a Mujingfang (on Pine)...

But the other shaving was taken with a Veritas BU Smoother. Here is another on hard Rick Maple ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

[JDarvall]

. The blade would actually cut hair, but not particularly easily, only if I scraped it across my skin. I take it that's not sharp enough?

yep. thats not sharp enough. if it was they'd fall off seemingly before you even touch them. that easy. But don't go overboard. I wouldn't do it that way anyway. I'd test with your nail if I was you, or your'll end up with no hair on your arm. Feels a bit safer too.

And when you check it your looking for it to be sharp all the way along the edge. So, for me, as long as its biting my nail, all along its edge its time to get some work done.....good enough.

if a glinting edge looking back at you,,,,, thats a dead giveaway for a blunt blade.

The other important thing is, you gotta feather the edges of your blade. uno, gota curve both corners of the blade. Don't have to, but if you don't you'll mark up work thats wider than the width of your blade. Will leave little lines on the surface that looks horrible.

So you have to check for that as well. I do that with a small offcut of white laminated MDF..(kitchen shyt). Make sure the offcuts edge is a crisp straight edge......place the blade on that right up to the edge, and the white against a dark background should help you see it. So you can see what exactly needs to be fixed. Want the edges to faintly round over.....that one may take you a while to pick up. The coarser the shaving you intend to make the more the curvature you need.

[MikeW]

To give a visual to what Jake is talking about, this page from a US Army book gives the gist of it...just don't take this for gospel either in the amount of shaping (curveture) but especially those barely rounded corners on the smoothing iron. In practice, they shouldn't be so tight and in reality as you hone they will be more like the others, just not as great a curve.



Take care, Mike

[JDarvall]

That says it all I think. Think thats about 1.5mm on the jack iron.......and half that on the fore plane. I probably should mark that on my white offcut I was talking about.

I wouldn't get too intimidated by those tissue shavings. It great, but in practise I feel you don't need that sort of shaving. The only time I take shavings like that is inadvertantely. Too slow. Needless wear to your blades most of the time.

Just thought of another thing that may help you jisk, from that diagram of Mikes.....its common to setup two planes, like your fore and your jack.......but generally any two planes....one set to take more off than the other, so you don't have to switch settings all the time. Good for repeatitive tasks. uno,,,,take most of the stock off first with the coarse set plane to near finish.....then switch to the fine set one and clean up with a fine shaving.....

I take to work with me every morning a pair of planes. Sharpen up before I leave, and drop them in my bag....a no.3 and a no.4 stanley.

But its especially good if you using woodies I think, like you have there Jisk, cause its trickier I think to withdraw a woodies blade from a thin to coarse shaving than a metal equivelent, which you'd have to do if you just worked with one plane only.

[MikeW]

Yeppers. For me, the idea is to take as much as possible without--or with as little--tear out as possible.

Here's a #3 on curly Bubinga. The piece was *very* rough sawn. Goal was to make it smooth, no tear out. Blade is lightly cambered. Stopped as son as the first wider, long shavings came off...





The thinnest of shavings are sometimes necesssary. If not, the work goes faster taking the thickest shaving, especially when it is the first face being flattened. Regardless, the iron needs to be as sharp for either.

Take care, Mike

[Alastair]

Hello jisk,

Having watched this thread with interest, as I have experienced your frustration, I have finally been provoked into a sermon which has been building for a long time. Hopefully there is something in there which might be of value.

I am going to take the risk of being branded a Philistine by my (ex)countryman in Perth, but as someone who has less time, (and certainly skill), I have over the years done a lot on comparing the trade off of perfection against cost, (both monetary and time), in pursuit of a compromise which works for me in terms of efficiency, and makes sense in terms of the science as well.

Firstly, the equipment: Cannot afford the LN's or Gordons of this world. Have a hardware store Stanley smoother bought 20 years ago, and a small collection of Muji's, picked up during those giddy days in Sydney a couple of years ago.
In spite of knowing all the (conventional ) theory, battled with the Stanley for 18 years, and had a steep learning curve with the Muji's.

Have gone from the traditional, via 'scary sharp' (with some success but little satisfaction) to where I am now, I always felt that the return on effort was disappointing. For me the epiphany came when I found Brent Beach's site, http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/ . For the first time the science seemed right. I have adapted his concepts to meet my less stringent standards.

A couple of concepts basic to where I stand:

"Sharp" is the meeting of 2 straight lines. To this end, scary sharp, buffing wheels, leather strops, and any flexible medium is out, as it must by definition produce a rounded surface.

A plane is only sharp while you are taking the first shaving. Thereafter it is getting blunt. All else is a matter of degree. While there is some evidence to suggest that a blade sharpened to the ultimate fineness might be slower to degrade, Brents' photo evidence shows that the 2 'wear bevels' start forming from the first shaving. How quickly it dulls will depend on the timber, (and I guess technique).

While there is benefit in flattening the back of a blade while fettling a plane, to maximise wedge and capiron/chipbreaker fit, it has no place in subsequent sharpening, replace it with a micro back bevel. There is also no benefit to polishing the main blade bevel to the umpteenth grit. Keep that for the secondary bevel, (or series of--- if you take Brents' method on board in its entirety.)

To the sharpening:
I am going to assume we have a fettled blade, blunt from planing, which originally had a main bevel of 25 deg, secondary bevel of 28 deg, and a small back bevel of ~2 deg, as getting to this initially is virtually identical to resharpening.

1 I start with the basic 2 layer "oilstone" bought from Bunnings. Cheap, cuts well, works for me. Only imperative is that it is kept flat. Plenty on that elsewhere. I have a cheap (I think Record) single roller sharpening jig. Angles are set using a projection jig for 25 (and 28) deg. I usually sharpen the main bevel at 25 deg, on the fine (orange) side of the stone. I haven't been able to break years of conditioning. While this does little, it probably does help to reduce the size of the secondary bevel, and delays the inevitable regrind.
2 Reset projection to 28 deg, and sharpen secondary bevel lightly on the fine side of stone, maintaining or developing the slight curve back at corners, until the wear bevel has been removed. Check frequently until burr is felt all along the back of the blade, indicating the secondary bevel is meeting the back bevel at a clean angle. The main thing is to remove the wear bevel.
3 If I flip my jig over, and let the 'cheeks' ride on the stone, I get virtually the 2 deg back bevel I wish, so that's what I do. I will get around to modifying the jig with a small ball race to prevent wear.
Sharpen back bevel to remove wear bevel, again checking to make sure you achieve a definite burr all across the secondary bevel.
4 Here is where I depart from Brents' methods, as I have had a partial conversion to the 'dark side'. I carefully clean oil off the blade, and jig and roller, and move to a waterstone. For my neanderthal purposes, I have a 6000. With the same projection, I hone the secondary bevel until I again feel a 'micro' burr all the way along the back, then flip and do the same for the back bevel. I might even use my tongue to confirm the burr this time. Usually I just hone for the usual amount of time, and 'she'll be right'
5 Reassemble, set and plane, The whole jigged process, on a plane which has not been blunted into oblivion, takes about 3 minutes, and leaves me with an edge which, while probably far from the purists perfection, will remove hair, and give me lacy shavings, provided I get the setup right.

To me the advantage is that it is quick, not tedious, and I am less tempted to delay resharpening, so while I may start with an edge which is slightly less than perfect, I spend much more time planing with an edge which is on average far sharper.

From time to time, it is necessary to regrind, when the secondary or back bevels get wide enough that the honing time becomes excessive. I have always done this using a homemade jig on a disc sander, 'cause I have one, and then proceed as above.

Just a final rant on "chipbreakers". If you look at the dimensions of the wear bevels in Brent's photos, it is obvious that the shaving has left the blade long before it gets near them! If they have a purpose, I believe that it is more related to blade stability and reducing chatter, and confirms what I have always found, that setting fine to the cutting edge only causes jamming in the throat. I now probably settle at ~1-1.5 mm back.

Let the flaming begin!!!!!

regards,

[rsser]

Heresy! Where's my stake and firewood

Ok, started reading Brent's material and the first para is about abrasive paper sharpening ... So you feel this is overkill?

Re edge qualities, aren't you talking about 'keen' rather than sharp (a Lee distinction)? Sharp is a product of keen plus bevel geometry, metallurgy and more.

Hope these comments meet your expecations of heat