Adding a new power circuit

[hardy]

Thatirwinfella At the moment I am doing research and don’t plan on doing any electrical work until the electrian inspects the job. I still have to find the power input for some appliances to calculate the demand. Yes I agree and was thinking of splitting the circuit so the laundry is separate from the kitchen. If I did this I would be leaving the existing wiring in the kitchen and bedroom and 16A circuit breaker for it. I will rewire the laundry circuit 4mm and use a 20A circuit breaker on the new circuit. The only problem is the only cavity wall in the laundry is not on the same side as the water taps and waste drain. Therefore I would have to have a conduit buried in the cement render on the wall to connect the existing GPO used now or I guess i could use an extension cord on the appliance to the new GPO and hook it on the wall. No I can’t plug the heater in another room because the extension cord would have to be at least 10 metres. I plan to calculate the voltage drop but have not yet as I haven’t measured the distance the cable will travel.
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Ashore
So far I have found that the circuit trips under a few conditions. When the washing machine or dryer is on at the same time as the microwave and heater (on half power). When washing machine and dryer are on at the same time it trips with nothing else. Also if the microwave and the convection microwave and a frying pan are on at the same time. Ideally I would like to run the washing machine and dryer at the same time and I think for this to be possible the existing 10A GPO would have to be replaced with a 15A GPO. Even before the present power problems at times when the washing machine and dryer were on at the same time they would switch off but not blow the fuse. Sorry that was my mistake I meant 30mm height x 30mm deep trench.

[Guy]

I try keep out these electrical questions. I did a 4 year City & Guilds course in Electrical installation as well as a degree in Electrical and electronics engineering. I moved here and may as well throw the certificates in the Bin as no Gov body wanted to recognize them.
I went to the office of chief electrical inspector who agreed I was competent to do electrical installations they even had me sit a dew papers, however under Vic law I would have still been required to go back to tafe for 4 years and serve an apprentiship before I cold get licensed.
I was informed that the licensing system was introduced at the request of unions in the 50's to stop the migrant workers taking Aussie jobs.
I can go to Queensland show the appropriate agency there my certificates and get a Qld license and then come back to Vic and get it transferred straight over.
It is a totally ludicrous system we have here, seeing wholesalers will sell you the stuff hardware shops all sell it and even places like bunnies will even draw you a little pic on how to connect it all together.
In my current line of work when im asked if I can put a power point in I tell them get an electrician in. I generally will rough the cables in whilst im there and get him in to terminate them. And when I rough them in me charge electricians rates.
If i had the nerve i would create a web site with the info on for people to learn, but not have it hosted in Aus

[felixe]

Mick, in answer to your last question, I recently had to recap the Electrical Regs from 2000 and I seem to remember that if an "apprentice/trainee" was working on an electrical job then - yes a licence holder "has to be there looking over your shoulder as you do the work" as they are responsible if you stuff it up, so you should stick to your story.
Besides - in my last post I quoted directly from the Govt publication, a reliable source I think and good to get the facts from the "horses mouth"

[ian]

not trying a deliberat hyjack, but as I understand it, in NSW only plumbers can "legally" change a tap washer which smells suspiciously like a make work scheme for plumbers.
Does "supevision by qualified person" include supervision of the person installing electrical conduit? If so, the regs you're quoting sound like a similar make work exercise


ian

[felixe]

goddamit, are you guys really gonna hassle me until I read this 156 page act again. I'll get back to you shortly!

[felixe]

Ian, if you read my post on page 2 you will see that I posted from the "safe" magazine published by and for worksafe in QLD. This clearly sets out (in a nice neat summary) who can do electrical work in QLD.
Nothing can stop unlicenced people from doing the work, if you know what you are doing (like Mick? - going on his posts he sounds pretty knowledgable) you should not get caught 'cause you probably won't stuff it. But if you are hamfisted and bugger it, causing damage or injury the Govt will throw the book at you!!
Just on another point, the IGA in Mareeba QLD was fined $30 000 for allowing an employee to climb 2 milk crates to count stock on the top shelf, that employee fell and broke a limb. As a result of negligent WHS they were fined. Imagine the penalty for dodgy unlicenced wiring that caused a fire or injury. Never mind the insurance, the fine will (probably) send you broke!

[boban]

Dont want to be argumentative Felixe, but the version of supervision you seem to suggest is not what I've observed on sites. You would never employ an apprentice if that were the case as you wouldn't be doing any work yourself, just watching the kid crawl through the roof or under the house.

[Guy]

Has anyone ever been taken to court by the relevant state bodies and prosecuted for doing there own electrical work? And if so what was the outcome, i could not find anything when i did a search

[felixe]

Page 58 of the QLD

Electrical Safety Regulation 2002

57 Performing electrical work without electrical licence

For section 55(3)(d)

6 of the Act, the following testing is
authorised—
(a) the testing of electrical equipment by a competent
person, if the testing is required under part 5, division 5
or section 126;7

(b) the testing of the works of an electricity entity by a
competent person;

5 Now see the

Queensland Building Services Authority Regulation 2003, section 38.
6 Section 55 (Requirement for electrical work licence) of the Act
7 Part 5 (Electrical installations), division 5 (Workplace electrical installations) or
section 126 (Hiring electrical equipment)

s 58

59 s 59

Electrical Safety Regulation 2002

Example for paragraph (b)

—
a competent person testing protection relay operation that is part
of the works of an electricity entity

(c) the testing of electrical equipment by a person, other
than testing mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b), if the
testing does not interfere with the integrity of the
electrical equipment.

Examples for paragraph (c)

—
• a person testing a safety switch in a domestic electrical
installation by operating a test button on the safety switch
• a person using an appropriate voltmeter to measure voltage

Now see the

Queensland Building Services Authority Regulation 2003, section 38.
6 Section 55 (Requirement for electrical work licence) of the Act
7 Part 5 (Electrical installations), division 5 (Workplace electrical installations) or
section 126 (Hiring electrical equipment)

Electrical Safety Act 2002

Meaning of

electrical work

(1)

Electrical work is the manufacturing, constructing, installing,
testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing, or
replacing of electrical equipment.

Examples of electrical work

—
• installing low voltage electrical wiring in a building
• installing electrical equipment into an installation coupler or
interconnecter
• replacing a low voltage electrical component of a washing machine
• maintaining an electricity entity’s overhead distribution system

(2) However, the following are not

electrical work—
(a) installing or removing electrical equipment by
connecting it to electricity, or disconnecting it from
electricity, by a plug and socket outlet;
(b) repairing or replacing non-electrical components of
electrical equipment;

(c) replacing a component forming part of electrical
equipment if the electrical equipment has been designed
so that the component is readily and safely able to be
replaced by a person without electrical knowledge or
skill;

Examples for paragraph (c)

—
• replacing a fuse
• replacing the bulb in a light fitting

It goes on and on in definition, Interested? go to the website and download!!

Part 4 Licences

Division 1 Requirements for electrical licences

55 Requirement for electrical work licence

(1) A person must not perform or supervise electrical work
unless—
(a) the person is the holder of an electrical work licence in
force under this Act; and
(b) the licence authorises the person to perform the work.
Maximum penalty—400 penalty units.
(2) Only an individual may be the holder of an electrical work
licence.

(3) A person is not required under subsection (1) to hold an
electrical work licence for the purpose of the following—
(a) performance or supervision of electrical work for the
purpose of installing or repairing telecommunications
cabling;
(b) performance or supervision of electrical work in
practising the person’s profession as an electrical
engineer;
(c) performance or supervision of remote rural installation
work;
(d) performance or supervision of electrical work as part of
the testing of electrical equipment that the person is
authorised to do under a regulation;
(e) performance, as an apprentice, of electrical work in a
calling that requires the apprentice to perform electrical
work;
(f) performance, as a trainee, of electrical work in a calling
that requires the trainee to perform electrical work of a
type prescribed under a regulation;
(g) performance, as a student, of electrical work as part of
training under the supervision of teaching staff at—
(i) a university; or
(ii) a college, school or similar institution conducted or
approved by a department of the State or of the
Commonwealth.

There you go, I knew I read it somewhere
So you are covered if you are an apprentice/trainee, a student at school.

I hope this clears it up, if you have anymore questions, don't pester me, call your appropriate Government body and clarify the matter with them.

[felixe]

Boban, in reply to what you are saying, "supervision" will always be subjective. I don't know the NSW legislation, have not and will not read the acts and regs as they don't concern my writing of a workplace health and safety document in QLD. I suggest you call the relevant authorities if you are concerned.

[boban]

I seem to remember that if an "apprentice/trainee" was working on an electrical job then - yes a licence holder "has to be there looking over your shoulder as you do the work"

So this is not exactly right, but Mick's in the poo

[boban]

No not concerned Felixe, just stirrin'

[journeyman Mick]

So this is not exactly right, but Mick's in the poo

No, not me, the sparky was right there, looking over my shoulder all the time! Besides which, the question will never come up, as there won't be any problems. I have an Ergon inspector living next door who checked it all before the sparky signed off on it, so it's been doubly checked.

Interesting about the $30K fine for the IGA in Mareeba (that's up the road from here about 20 mins drive). Yeah, they should probably have a better training regime safety wise, but did anyone tell that person to use two milk crates to stand on? Was there a ladder available? Another reason I wouldn't want to employ anyone, you're responsible if they injure themselves even if it's through their own idiocy.

Mick

[felixe]

I agree Mick, the question only ever comes up when the s#$t hits the fan, and if the Ergon inspector checks your work then your larfin'!
With IGA, thought this might interest you as you live close by, but I dunno Mick, it was a summary in the "Safe" magazine, but it makes you wonder? We had a similar situation at work, while I was on holidays the "retail Manager" in our adjoining shop decided to start storing stock on top of our coolroom, a good 2-3m high. We don't have a ladder (which is why we never used this for storage before!) so he told his and my staff (in my absence) to use a milk crate to retrieve the stock until he got around to getting a ladder.
I came back a week later, blew my top, borrowed a ladder, removed all the stock!
Idiots!!!!!!

An interesting quote from the article:

"The company (Mareeba IGA) has also reinforced with staff that the use
of milk crates outside their intended design and use is a prohibited
system of work". uhhuh.

[thatirwinfella]

for apprentice supervision, in victoria it is along the lines of;

1st and 2nd years... nothing, and i mean nothing., zip, nada, zilch, can be done with a licenced electrician in the vicinty, ie earshot minimum, preferably visual contact. There can be no access to live circuits.

3rd year... most activities can be done with an electrician checking the quality of the apprentices work periodically. still no access to live circuits, and limited fault finding tasks can be undertaken.

4th year... nearly all activities can be done solely by the apprentice, with an electrican available if required. daily contact is neccessary to keep track of the apprentice's work and provide instruction if required. no access to live circuits, more advanced faultfinding tasks can be done.

despite this hand holding policy, there are some advantages of getting apprentices.. all the dodgy little jobs are done by them rather then someone at a higher rate of pay. Need a spotter? don't get the $30 dollar an hour sparky, get the $7.50 an hour apprentice. and there are some tax breaks as well, but i'm not sure of the specifics.

also, as an apprentice, if i was to do any work without a licenced sparky, eg, what is frequently discussed on this forum, I would have the book thrown at me. A larger, heavier book, just to teach me a lesson. But anyone else gets the smaller book tapped on their wrist.

okay, I'll stop high jacking the thread.

hardy, if you're digging a 300x300 trench think again.... electrical trenches are 600 deep minimum. it's in the regs