Installing cooktop - do I need an electrician - and if so why?

[Redgy]

Whats an MEN link?

Multiple Earthed Neutral

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.

Yes, all the electricians got together & we decided it was a bad idea so had the books removed from the bookstores.

Redgy

[rrich]

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.

I guess that is your local application of the mushroom theory.

We're lucky in that respect. Almost every big box home improvement store has their own book explaining the code interms that can be understood by ID 10 Ts like me.

[lnt9000]

Its interesting that I cannot buy a book to obtain more information on home electrical wiring.
Pulpo

The regulations in australia are one of the most stringent on this planet, It wasn't all that long ago when I use to service tv's vcr's etc, In australia anyone could open up the back of a set and do what ever they liked under no threat from any govening body, tv's were not thought of as seriously as mains wiring although they incorporated just that, It is quite amazing in fact that the countries that have the least stringent regulations have the least amount of electrocutions, this is a known fact and as such is generally associated with a more competative industry due to legislation which allows individuals to do their own wiring. here in aus It just keeps getting worse, a few years back queensland Introduced a new legislation that put hundreds of technicians out of work, anyone working on mains powered appliances had to have an electricians license, I believe they had a special "deal" happening with some of the major players that enabled them to obtain this license with little effort, with the threat that it was to spread to other states I enquired as to what I would have to do to obtain one, A four year apprenticeship I was informed, hell I was getting a little too old who would hire a 50 year old apprentice? also they were toying with the idea of removing electrical items from hardware stores etc and have them available only in specialized shops which required you to provide proof of trade to acquire, In silicon chip magazine this was extensively covered and the masses of disapprovals that ensued might have disheartened the mongers, and they left sleeping dogs lie, but then I havn't been in touch,and then to answer your question who would bother to write a book that would have little interest, (let alone the legal ramifications) you will find plenty of them in overseas countries where individuals buy them so that they can legally carry out their own wiring, those books are of absolutely no value here.

[silentC]

My uncle works the electrical section of a Bunnings. Every weekend he gets people asking him how to wire up a powerpoint. He says if I have to tell you how to wire one up you shouldn't be doing it.

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

Maybe you also need to look at the number of house fires and the number of new home owners who have to pay for their house to be re-wired after the previous owner had his way with it.

We've had this debate before (whatever happened to Jackie?). There has to be SOME regulation. Letting any mug do his own wiring is a dumb idea. I think it should be a bit easier for people to get qualified though. I'd love to do a course and become qualified but like you I'm a bit old to be an apprenticeship.

[Iain]

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

.

Would that be per head of capita???

[pharmaboy2]

My uncle works the electrical section of a Bunnings. Every weekend he gets people asking him how to wire up a powerpoint. He says if I have to tell you how to wire one up you shouldn't be doing it.

I'd like to see those stats, Hen. It's hard to imagine a country with a population the size of Australia having more electrocutions than somewhere the size of the US.

Maybe you also need to look at the number of house fires and the number of new home owners who have to pay for their house to be re-wired after the previous owner had his way with it.

We've had this debate before (whatever happened to Jackie?). There has to be SOME regulation. Letting any mug do his own wiring is a dumb idea. I think it should be a bit easier for people to get qualified though. I'd love to do a course and become qualified but like you I'm a bit old to be an apprenticeship.

"a little bit of information can be dangerous" - in this case, it is the witholding of the rest of the information that sometimes makes it dangerous. case in point, householder 9/10ths through a job and asks a sparky on a forum or over the phone a question of confirmation and the sparky wont answer because its against the law to actually help someone, and almost certainly make it safer - that is an outcome that cant possibly help.

On the above i have come up against that exact problem with a 2 way switch (a relo sparky no less!), so figured it out with trial and error - which paradoxically is much safer than it sounds.

Apologies to sparky's on forum, but having worked in the building industry and done work with and without trades in all the trades i can think of, and electrical work was the most often botched by the guys we used, yet easiest to do(close call to tilers!).

[silentC]

in this case, it is the witholding of the rest of the information that sometimes makes it dangerous. case in point, householder 9/10ths through a job and asks a sparky on a forum or over the phone a question of confirmation and the sparky wont answer because its against the law to actually help someone, and almost certainly make it safer - that is an outcome that cant possibly help.

You're missing the point. If they have to ask, they shouldn't be doing ANY of it. That's why they say "all electrical work must be carried out by a licensed contractor" instead of "up to 9/10ths of the work may be carried out by anyone who thinks they're capable of it".

If a sparky does a bodgy job, he is responsible for it. If your work causes a fire or kills someone, your insurance company will just laugh at you and walk away.

[pharmaboy2]

silentC, thats why I said a question of "confirmation" - so for example, original poster asks if replacing a cooktop is a simple as it seems, and no electrician answers except with a "you are not legally entitled to do the work" - OK which they know so the point is worthless, yet a reply such as - as long as the ratings are the same nothing needs to change, unless its a new install in which case you'd need to have a local switch to install.

I must admit though, that just because Australia has a set of laws(as strong as any other western country) I dont automatically believe they save any lives or outcomes. It wouldnt surprise me at all if there is no difference in fatality rates in the US versus here, after all everyone is well aware of how dangerous the stuff is - a leco with a multimeter has reason and knowledge to work on live electricals - a householder doesnt - any DIYer would be throwing the main switch - that alone I would think would bring the fatality rates towards equal for work done. But i would like to see the stats for interest.

I wouldnt tell anyone how to put in a new point, but someone who wants to move a light switch 200mm out of the way of a door, hardly deserves to pay an electrician $80 for being handy with black electrical tape! Whose argueing that it should be illegal to change your own blown fuse (wire type)? thats just crazy.

[silentC]

Does anybody use fusewire any more? We upgraded our meter box to use circuit breakers - much easier when it trips at 10:00 at night

For the record, I have done my own electrical work in the past and no doubt will again. Moving light switches, moving and adding points - that type of thing. I'm not saying that it's rocket science.

What I am arguing is that having the information readily available to any weekend warrior is not a great idea. Imagine you could go to Bunnies and buy a book on rewiring your house. Can you imagine the turmoil if one of those guys in the cargo pants and sandals that you see down there decided to go home and do their own wiring? It's better that it's a black art so that at least the guys doing it should know which wire goes where on a point without needing instructions on the back of the packet.

[pharmaboy2]

Unfortunately both my sets of parents have fusewire - I've just found out unfortunately! Maybe i can get a bulk purchase on 30 of the cb's.

Obviously I agree that rewiring the house is a biggy. I have a neighbour that requires me to put a bbq together but I assume he's never gonna get the confidence to go mucking around with putting a new circuit in, but even he could manage to change a light fitting - you know put it back the same way you found it concept LOL!

Although i think instructions on the back of packets is a good thing - basics like colours of active, neutral, and earth should be widely known, and on a switch replacement the an old broken one might have different markings - you know what is X, 1 and 2 signify etc. When authorities assume that no-one non electrical will ever do something, thats when bad things start to happen - if you assumed on the roads that no-one ever made a mistake we wouldnt have guard rails! Deliberate creation of ignorance is not usually good policy.

silent - now dont get me on to plumbers either Sheeesh! The world's one big demarcation dispute!

[Pulpo]

Woollies still sells fuse wire, so one would assume that those fuses are still used.

So what many are arguing is having the law for the lowest common multiple.

A pollies utopia.

Electric cooktops are just not as good as gas, that way no sparkie required.

Speaking of which I'm about to install a cooktop which is gas, hopefully the law doesn't require me to consult a sparkie to inform me I require a gas fitter.

At a quick look the gas fitter has a hose to connect fittings attached.

Cheers

Pulpo

[silentC]

I bet the instruction sheet that comes with your stove says "must be installed by a licensed gasfitter". It probably has electric igniton? You'll need a sparky too in that case.

On the lowest common multiple comment, yes. Do you really want some of those people at Bunnies on Saturday wiring/plumbing the house that you or one of your children might buy off them one day?

[Redgy]

Apologies to sparky's on forum, but having worked in the building industry and done work with and without trades in all the trades i can think of, and electrical work was the most often botched by the guys we used, yet easiest to do(close call to tilers!).

Apology not accepted.:mad: poor tiling never killed anyone

I have no problems with people such as yourself going for it with domestic wiring but don't ring a sparky when it doesn't work OR you don't know how to do it so can't finish it OR you electrocute someone OR your house burns down. You will deservedly get a short answer. If the guys you have used in the past are crap then tarring the whole trade with the same brush is obviously easier for you than dealing with the issues & people at the time.

[rrich]

Mates,
I'm sorry that I started this by suggesting to just go ahead and do it.

Obvioiusly, you do have some rather stringent rules concerning electric wiring. But then there was the comment about electrical tape... We have to use wire nuts these days.

All in all it got me thinking about the electrocutions. It seems from several comments that your rate (In Australia) is much higher than ours. In the US, virtually all of the consumer accessable electric power is 120 volts. The heavy duty appliances like cook tops, whole house aif conditioners, ovens and larger shop machinery are powered by 240 volts. The usual consumer does not mess with the 240 volt wiring. It is my understanding that everything there is 240 volts.

Based upon the difference in the commonally available voltage, do you think that the higher voltage is the real reason for the higher rate of electrocutions? Here it really takes some effort to be killed by 120 volts. What do you guys think?

AND, while reading this thread I saw that there was a need for a sparky to do a new powerpoint. Now this dumb yank is thinking, 'Why is a sparky needed to create something in the Microsoft program PowerPoint?' Then I realized that your powerpoint is what we call an outlet. Well why not call an outlet a powerpoint? We call the 12 volt access in our vehicles a powerpoint. Same thing only different voltages.

[silentC]

We call the 12 volt access in our vehicles a powerpoint.

Here in Australia we call that a cigarette lighter

Regarding voltage, it's the current, not the voltage, that kills you. 110v can be lethal. Anything over 24v can cause harm or kill if you get enough of it.