so whats our immigration policy?

[rsser]

Racism most folk agree is not a good thing; on the other hand racist attitudes are common.

Not a good thing because our 'better selves' say treat a person on his or her merits and not on the basis of race, sex, belief, creed, ethnicity etc. In practice we often do.

I take a Burkeian view of political leadership; I expect political leaders to lead and make the most of our better selves and not merely follow popular attitudes or ditch principles for the sake of electoral advantage.

My previous posts Fred should indicate that on these issues I don't carry a candle for Labor.

We have anti-discrimination legislation in this country. The Howard govt legislated an exemption from this for the purposes of the NT 'intervention', ie. to allow race-based policy and administration. Labor has not repealed this and is now proposing race-based discrimination against refugees.

State sanctioned racism is a very slippery slope as many Jewish members of our community will attest.

[Big Shed]

I think we are getting a bit off topic here.

Ern, like you I abhor racism in all its' forms, there is no place for it in a civilised society. I have seen first hand the effect of extreme racism and I would hate to see that happen here.

I don't think I either implied or said straight out that you "carried a candle for Labor". I don't really care whether you do or don't I merely contrasted the 2 approaches, Rudd vs Howard, and what Rudd promised and (not) delivered.

Rudd is long on rhetoric and (very) short on actually doing something and that isn't only with regard to illegal immigration. This country is no better served by Rudd's approach than it was by Howards', however all the Howard haters can't see anything wrong with whatever Rudd does. Like Howard, Rudd is driven by opinion polls and "develops" policy based on whatever the latest opinion polls tel him. The latest back flip with the 3-6 month delayed processing is a perfect example of this. If Howard had done that, Labor supporters would have gone ballistic, now they merely shake their head and say that they disapprove.

Rudd has tried to transfer the problem to Indonesia, as Howard did to the Pacific nations, at least Howard was open about it.

With regard to the NT intervention, I won't comment, I will only say that it had bi-partisan support and to this day Jenny Macklin is one of its' strongest supporters.

[damian]

I take a Burkeian view of political leadership; I expect political leaders to lead and make the most of our better selves and not merely follow popular attitudes or ditch principles for the sake of electoral advantage.

That never happens in practise. I despised Howard for taking our guns off us, making tertiary education more expensive, introducing the GST that sent so many of my friends businesses out the door, but I give credit where it's due. He at least had some principles he was willing to stick to, and they managed the economy better than Hawke or Rudd have (or Whitlam for that matter).

Rudd is totally without principles. He is the ultimate "hollow man", ambitious, but for no reason only the love of power and self importance. He is like Keeting without the (obvious) arrogance.

I suppose I am more anti labour than most, having dealt with what they have done to Queensland over the last 12 years. I am no fan of the coalition, but I will vote for them at a pinch. I've never voted labour, not because I'm anti-socialist but because they are. They have utterly betrayed their core constituants for political ends and to serve their rampant corruption.

Anyway, this isn't about the political parties, nor really was it about racism. As I said before I have no issue with the ethnic mix of the immigrants, provided proper background checks are done. I grew up in Sydney, in a most ethnically diverse area. I've seen the worst and best of it. I very simply resist immigration, I see no upside to it. I resist incentives for people to breed also, while not at all advocating trying to stop them. I continue to believe Australia's population should be 13 million.

It is worth noting that property developers are major contributors to both parties coffers. A clue to their policies might lurk there.

[Master Splinter]

I don't have a particular problem with immigrants, just the ones who bring their petty (but decades old, violent and bloody) feuds with them. If they want to continue their historical tit for tat hostilities against (insert racial/ethnic/religious/tribal group that 'done 'em wrong' here), they can take their bat and ball and go home.

I'm also a bit wary of refugees who manage to completely miss many safer landfalls in less economically desirable locations like India/Indonesia/Singapore/Malaysia and end up on our shores, sans any documentation or proof of their story - for these, I actually like Senator Fielding's idea of doing a two for one deal with one of the nations they didn't quite make it to...we'd repatriate the however-many undocumented people there are on Christmas Island to the nearest safe country from their point of origin, and take double their number in patiently waiting refugees from that country's refugee camps.

Labor/Liberal wise, I've always thought of Labor as honestly dishonest and the Liberals as dishonestly dishonest - if Labor ministers change or ignore their department's advice, they tend to carry the can for it, while the Liberal approach was to shove it back on the department and try to deny involvement.

[corbs]

I do not have an issue with refugees seeking asylum in Australia, but the issue with them coming by boat is a security and quarantine threat. Aside from not knowing who is on the boats, we have no idea what is on the boats. Jamia Islamia is a very well organised group in Indonesia and there are very real risks in allowing the boats to continue.

We are lucky in Australia that our isolation in relation to other countries helps protect us but I think it also makes us complacent. There are very real security risks in people coming to Australia by boat and I cannot understand why one of the major political parties doesn't use this as their justification for condemning boat people. As soon as the issue ceases to be the people and becomes the method (and potential consequences) then all the tree hugging, right to life civil libertarians will have to support that party. If they don't then they will be arguing against a party that is in effect, agreeing with them.

I haven't seen it mentioned in here but I read somewhere that around 80-90% of boat people are approved as refugees, whilst 60-70% of fly ins are approved. The majority of boat people are legitimate refugees but we have to control their method.

[Sebastiaan56]

I haven't seen it mentioned in here but I read somewhere that around 80-90% of boat people are approved as refugees, whilst 60-70% of fly ins are approved. The majority of boat people are legitimate refugees but we have to control their method.

The real point. I heard 93%. These people are fleeing states where despots rule, where your surname and family history mark you out for persecution and where their children will have no future.

I had a Vietnamese lady working for me in the 80's. She was perpetually derided by her Aussie colleagues for taking any overtime offered. It was well known that she had a second job and casual work in a couple of local restaurants. About 18 months after I met her she announced that she had finally raised the money to get her husband out of Vietnam, over AUD80k in bribes had to be paid to the communists to get his release. He duly arrived and I employed him as well. There were scars from torture on his arms and legs that he never wanted to talk about. She was originally a boat person. Damn I was proud to know them.

These are people we are discussing here folks. Human beings. The same as you and me with the same hopes aspirations and needs. We dont know what it is like to live under terror and brutality. To live in constant fear of the police and military, to be summarily executed or maimed, to live without running water, sewerage or basic healthcare. These people are fleeing for their lives. It would be great to help them in their home countries but the baying and carry on about our -ant foreign aid budget is pathetic. Our pollies dont have the b@lls, none of them.

As for our political leaders, 1.2 million people immigrated to Australia under Howard and it was Whitlam who first used the phrase "we will determine who comes to Australia and the manner of their coming". So no "L" party has my endorsement on these issues. They are pandering to the populist press and the next election cycle. They are not to be trusted.

Finally, Im a reffo, my parents fled Holland in the 50's due to economic conditions and were assisted by the Australian government. For better or for worse I employ a fifth generation Aussie, a third Generation Aussie, A Russian immigrant and a Hong Kong immigrant. My business is in a suburb where there over 130 languages spoken. I dont fear people because they look or sound different to me. There are people who shouldnt be allowed to settle here, fundamentalists, racists, userers and those with violent and abusive histories. Boat people statistically dont belong in those categories.

end of dummy spit....

[jimbur]

Thanks Sebastian, I agree entirely.

I find it very difficult not to lose my temper on this subject so I've kept out of it in the main. Part of my job used to entail visiting residences where the people had tattoos on their wrists. These were the survivors. Remember the Jews in Europe were turned away from frontiers in the same way as those seeking refuge today.
When ideology gets ahead of humanity we need to take a close look at ourselves and the world around us.
Jim

[rodmy]

Hear hear Sabastiaan56. Well said.

[hughie]

A shambles, are we doing these people a dis-service?


Curtin detention plan a 'chaotic policy' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Waldo]

It's not my issue the people coming or their ethnic race, I couldn't care if they're black, blue or green with pink spots. It's how we 'process' them etc.

I am in no way racist.

[ToothFairy]

I do not have an issue with refugees seeking asylum in Australia, but the issue with them coming by boat is a security and quarantine threat. Aside from not knowing who is on the boats, we have no idea what is on the boats. Jamia Islamia is a very well organised group in Indonesia and there are very real risks in allowing the boats to continue. [snip]
I haven't seen it mentioned in here but I read somewhere that around 80-90% of boat people are approved as refugees, whilst 60-70% of fly ins are approved. The majority of boat people are legitimate refugees but we have to control their method.

We need to remember that terrorists have spare funds and fake passports. They don't want to risk their lives in leaky boats when they can take out a whole jetliner. The chances of serious problems in these boatloads is not great.

- Michael

[hughie]

We need to remember that terrorists have spare funds and fake passports. They don't want to risk their lives in leaky boats when they can take out a whole jetliner. The chances of serious problems in these boatloads is not great.

But many supporters do arrive on these boats and they do provide financial help for the 'cause back home' some thing that does not sit well with most folks

[wheelinround]

Lets look at this another way if your a large major corperation who owns and runs detention centres and they are sitting idle and they don't have any support from the local government what would you be doing??

[rodmy]

But many supporters do arrive on these boats and they do provide financial help for the 'cause back home' some thing that does not sit well with most folks

hughie, this is most alarming news. I never realised this was the case.

Had a quick look on Gurgle, zip. Could you help out with some links and supporting evidence. Many thanks.

[damian]

Once again you bring it back to racism. Ok, call me racist, I don't care.

The fact is this isn't about race, it's about australian citizens having an opinion about our population, our immigration policy and our future. Take your racism angle away and you have no argument, because I have a right to disagree with you and I can make a viable case.

Get as angry as you like, goodeness knows I do about all sorts of things I percieve as wrong in our society, but calling me names isn't going to make me care how you feel. There is a signifigant sector of our population that is against immigration and against increased population. We will continue to make our case.

I now return you to your tantrum...