New Qld Bike Laws

[rustynail]

The choice of riding a bicycle is indeed his and the choice to drive is yours.

But whether you drive or cycle both must obey the road laws and that puts great obligations on you as a driver.

A few years back I was called for jury service in a case where an idiot motorist caused an accident with another car which was pushed into a cyclist who soon after died from his injuries. We found the idiot motorist guilty of the various charges laid by the police and it will be another 2 years before he will qualify for parole. I just hope that he is reflecting on his driving attitude whilst enjoying his prison term.

As I said the choice of how you drive is yours but be aware of the consequences of that choice and in our jury the point raised by the defence of mistakes, lapse of concentration etc was ignored as it should have.

Peter.

Peter, But how did that benefit the dead cyclist? Justice is not a form of resuscitation. Due to the vulnerability of the cyclist he is no longer with us. One could assume, had he been in a vehicle, his chances would have been increased considerably. Weather the jury took the mistakes made by the driver into consideration or not make no difference to the fact those mistakes are made, by many, on a daily basis and often cause accidents. These accidents can be fatal even to a protected driver. A cyclist stands to be at far greater risk and accidents do happen. When it comes to a life and death situation, the legalities tend to become somewhat irrelevant.

[silentC]

I realise it is difficult to put an old head on young shoulders

I'd just liked to point out that several of the guys I ride with occasionally are in their late 50's and 60's and one of them is 72. He rode from Perth to Merimbula about 4 years ago. But this suggestion that being a cyclist implies that one is young and foolish is just a tad insulting.

At the end of the day, as a cyclist I accept that, whilst most motorists have no issue with me being there, a few are going to share your opinions and there is nothing I can do to change that. We will never convince you to accept us, so it's just going to have to be a case of agree to disagree. I will watch out for you, and you just do what you want to do. Let me worry about what might happen.

A few weeks ago I had a delivery truck come past me. I was well over on the shoulder and no impact on him whatsoever, but the young guy in the passenger seat decided to yell out the window at me as they went past. On my way back I saw them parked, so I asked the young guy what he said. He mumbled something about getting on the bike track. I filled him in on the fact that there was no bike track to be on and anyway what problem was I causing him by being there? None of course, he just has a problem with cyclists, so even if they are not doing anything to bother him, he wants to let us know how he feels. I exchanged a few more pleasantries and left it there.

Guess what? I couldn't care less what he thinks of me. Do you think that someone who is prepared to take on traffic on a push bike is going to be put off by something like that? In fact I know a couple of blokes who would have given him a fat lip. Fortunately for him, I'm a lover not a fighter.

I know that some people drive past and think 'faggot'. I've been in the car with people who have said it about other cyclists. I just don't care. Save your fashion advice for someone who is concerned about how they look. I've had stuff thrown at me and had people deliberately cut me off. Water off a duck's back.

I'm not asking you to do anything different. If I can get over enough for you to pass, I will. If I'm riding next to a mate (yes we do talk, it's a very social sport) and you come up behind, I will move over. We choose to ride early morning when there is no traffic. We keep an eye out for cars. The person at the back will call out if one comes up behind. We have a whole bunch of signals we use that you're probably not aware of. I probably know you are there before you even see me.

That's my attitude anyway, and I know plenty of others deal with it the same way. I don't expect you to 'learn to live with it'. I'm not a militant cyclist. I'll just accept that you probably don't want me on the road and otherwise carry on.

[silentC]

Oh and FWIW I think the new law is pointless, impossible to enforce, and won't achieve anything but to give motorists one more thing to whinge about

[rustynail]

I'd just liked to point out that several of the guys I ride with occasionally are in their late 50's and 60's and one of them is 72. He rode from Perth to Merimbula about 4 years ago. But this suggestion that being a cyclist implies that one is young and foolish is just a tad insulting.

At the end of the day, as a cyclist I accept that, whilst most motorists have no issue with me being there, a few are going to share your opinions and there is nothing I can do to change that. We will never convince you to accept us, so it's just going to have to be a case of agree to disagree. I will watch out for you, and you just do what you want to do. Let me worry about what might happen.

A few weeks ago I had a delivery truck come past me. I was well over on the shoulder and no impact on him whatsoever, but the young guy in the passenger seat decided to yell out the window at me as they went past. On my way back I saw them parked, so I asked the young guy what he said. He mumbled something about getting on the bike track. I filled him in on the fact that there was no bike track to be on and anyway what problem was I causing him by being there? None of course, he just has a problem with cyclists, so even if they are not doing anything to bother him, he wants to let us know how he feels. I exchanged a few more pleasantries and left it there.

Guess what? I couldn't care less what he thinks of me. Do you think that someone who is prepared to take on traffic on a push bike is going to be put off by something like that? In fact I know a couple of blokes who would have given him a fat lip. Fortunately for him, I'm a lover not a fighter.

I know that some people drive past and think 'faggot'. I've been in the car with people who have said it about other cyclists. I just don't care. Save your fashion advice for someone who is concerned about how they look. I've had stuff thrown at me and had people deliberately cut me off. Water off a duck's back.

I'm not asking you to do anything different. If I can get over enough for you to pass, I will. If I'm riding next to a mate (yes we do talk, it's a very social sport) and you come up behind, I will move over. We choose to ride early morning when there is no traffic. We keep an eye out for cars. The person at the back will call out if one comes up behind. We have a whole bunch of signals we use that you're probably not aware of. I probably know you are there before you even see me.

That's my attitude anyway, and I know plenty of others deal with it the same way. I don't expect you to 'learn to live with it'. I'm not a militant cyclist. I'll just accept that you probably don't want me on the road and otherwise carry on.

The term "putting an old head on young shoulders" has nothing to do with the age of the cyclist. It is the experiences that the old head contains that make the difference. As I said, six months in a hospital bed gives plenty of time to think. I have no objection to cyclists using the road. I have never said they should not be there. I have never said I want the road to myself. I have never passed judgement on their sexual preferences. But I do think it is idiotic to take unnecessary risks. $hit happens. And when it does, and you are on a push bike, it will be serious. One issue that hasn't been covered in this debate is fatigue. When one becomes tired, their ability to think and react quickly becomes compromised. As an ex rugby player, I understand the importance of fitness to help keep your wits about you. Cycling can be tiring. I see them struggling up the hills on Bells Line of Road every weekend. One of the most dangerous roads in the State. Puffing and blowing like old steam trains. Sweat running off the end of their noses and as red as a beetroot. They have one thing and one thing only on their mind....to get to the top of that bloody hill. Everything around them would be a blur, as all they can see is their front tire as they inch towards the top. Meanwhile, we motorists have to patiently wait for a safe opportunity to maneuver around this nutter. And, as a local, mindful of the fact how precious few safe opportunities are available along this stretch of road. So now the motorist must make the decision when and where to make his move. Hoping, for all concerned, that his choice is a good one. Meanwhile, our sweaty little friend is still concentrating on his personal battle with the terrain. Oblivious to the plight of others. This is my objection; the unnecessary burden placed on others by their bloody mindedness and vulnerability.

[silentC]

The term "putting an old head on young shoulders" has nothing to do with the age of the cyclist

Sorry but when you say "you can't put an old head on young shoulders", there really is only one way of interpreting it. It simply means that you cannot expect a young person to have the wisdom of an older one. That is what the saying means. If you want to appropriate it for some other purpose, that's fine, but expect to be misunderstood when you do.

I have no objection to cyclists using the road

And then you give your evidence for why you think they shouldn't! Seems to me that you do have several objections to cyclists using the road and I accept that there are many people who hold this view.

So my reaction is simply that it is not really any of my business what you think about it. As long as it is legal to ride a bike on the road, I will continue to do so. I will continue to minimise my impact on motorists, I am one myself, and I will continue to ride defensively on the road, as I have done for more than 20 years.

I'm not asking you to change your behaviour, I don't even care if you want to try and 'blow me off the road' in your coach. I've coped with worse. It goes with the territory, I almost expect it from any professional driver in a large vehicle. Tradies in utes too.

I see little point in arguing with people about the ins and outs, because as I have said, I will never be able to convince you. I firmly believe that most people who put up the same arguments as you have don't want to be convinced. It's just a standard tactic when you object to something to search around for as many cons as you can. All you really need to say is "I don't want cyclists on the road" and then we all know where we stand.

[AlexS]

While I'm no longer a cyclist, I was for many years. During that time, I stayed alive by assuming that all motorists were idiots who were out to kill me. Some of the posts on here have convinced me that I was right.

It's dreadful, the way those bikes hold everyone up, isn't it. Funnily enough, though, all the traffic jams I hear about on the radio every morning are caused by cars. They shouldn't be allowed on the roads. Bikes were there first, anyway.

I was of the Evanism school: I wasn't aggressive or militant, but I was assertive, and I rode where it was safest for me. On a multi-lane road, that was about a metre from the kerb, so that motorists were forced to go, at least partly, into the next lane to overtake. If you can go part way, you can go all the way. You'll only get caught behind me if you aren't watching the traffic ahead.

If you deliberately or repeatedly endangered me, you would be reported to the police, and they, my local MP and the minister for police would be hassled until they took some action. That wasn't always necessary, especially once word got around. Even before the days of GoPros my strike rate was 100%, as I made a better witness than the fools who were taken to court, and you'd be surprised how many people see what you do and are willing to come forward.

As Silent says, these arguments won't change anyone's mind, but I now know who the people are who think that driving a car gives them some special rights.

[silentC]

all the traffic jams I hear about on the radio every morning are caused by cars

True, that

I used to ride to work from Ashfield to Burwood. I guarantee I got there quicker than I could have in my car.

[rustynail]

Sorry but when you say "you can't put an old head on young shoulders", there really is only one way of interpreting it. It simply means that you cannot expect a young person to have the wisdom of an older one. That is what the saying means. If you want to appropriate it for some other purpose, that's fine, but expect to be misunderstood when you do.


And then you give your evidence for why you think they shouldn't! Seems to me that you do have several objections to cyclists using the road and I accept that there are many people who hold this view.

So my reaction is simply that it is not really any of my business what you think about it. As long as it is legal to ride a bike on the road, I will continue to do so. I will continue to minimise my impact on motorists, I am one myself, and I will continue to ride defensively on the road, as I have done for more than 20 years.

I'm not asking you to change your behaviour, I don't even care if you want to try and 'blow me off the road' in your coach. I've coped with worse. It goes with the territory, I almost expect it from any professional driver in a large vehicle. Tradies in utes too.

I see little point in arguing with people about the ins and outs, because as I have said, I will never be able to convince you. I firmly believe that most people who put up the same arguments as you have don't want to be convinced. It's just a standard tactic when you object to something to search around for as many cons as you can. All you really need to say is "I don't want cyclists on the road" and then we all know where we stand.

I repeat, I have no objection to cyclists being on the road. I object to the bloody mindedness. You have suggested I wish to blow you off the road. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have spent my driving life trying to make things as easy as possible for any other person on the road, be they motorist, cyclist or pedestrian. I am not an aggressive driver. You dont get jobs driving coaches if you are. International licences for coach drivers are subject to some pretty heavy testing. More than can be said for cyclists. Your insinuation that I would wish to blow you off the road is unacceptable. I dont have to go looking for cons. They are already there in numbers. It is the pros that are hard to find. After 45 years on the road, most every day of the week, I have seen it all. I have a clean driving record and would like to keep it that way. My objection is not the fact that you are on the road, my objection is the fact that every one else has to take risks because of it. Particularly on some of our more dangerous roads. Surely you would concede there are some roads that are just not up to standard for cycling? Surely you would agree there are weather conditions unsuitable for cycling? Surely any cyclist with half a brain would have a light after dark? Not were I live. Have to dodge the idiots in the dark without lights on a regular basis. Have to dodge the idiots trying to ride up a hill that some cars have trouble negotiating. But we manage to avoid them. Why? Because we want to make it as easy as we can for others on the road. That simple.
Yes it is legal to use the road, but that is not going to make it any safer for any one. Its bloody dangerous out there. Road fatalities are a daily event. We have become blahzay to it and work on the theory,it wont happen to me. Well statistics beg to differ. The more time out there, the worse the conditions and the more traffic, the poorer your odds become. A ride on a quiet stretch of road with light traffic and nice weather is an activity anyone would enjoy. But to press yourself onto others by insisting on riding were ever and when ever you like is the sort of bloody mindedness I am talking about. Its called inconsideration.

[rustynail]

English Dictionary: "INEXPERIENCE. Quotation including inexperience: You cannot put an old head on young shoulders."

Nothing to do with age.A wise young fellow can be said to have an old head on his shoulders.

[doug3030]

English Dictionary: "INEXPERIENCE. Quotation including inexperience: You cannot put an old head on young shoulders."

Nothing to do with age.A wise young fellow can be said to have an old head on his shoulders.

That is a direct contradiction of of the quote. A young fellow can be said to have an old head on his shoulders but you cant put an old head on young shoulders.

I thought you were doing well up till then RustyNail

Cheers

Doug

[shedbound]

Does anyone think that maybe making a cyclist pay registration including a licence plate on bikes so they themselves can be identified in the case of "accidents" such as the handle bar scratch down the side of my car whilst sitting in traffic which would also include 3rd party insurance just incase another pedestrian gets killed. And maybe a theory test on the road rules would be good too. Im not sure that they dont, but insurance companies should offer insurance for cyclists that do damage other peoples property(such as my car) maybe then the person may have stopped and given some details instead of riding away like the wind and running the red light that al the cars had stopped for. Dont get me wrong i was a cyclist with numerous great Vic bike rides under my belt but i think things should be on an even keel. If i ever get back into it i know i would be happy to sit a test and pay the appropriate fees at least then i would know i was covered. regards Joel

[corbs]

Lecturing? You are not being lectured. You have been given the choice, along with a courteous expression of the possible risks that may befall you. I realise it is difficult to put an old head on young shoulders and often we dont wake up until we are confronted, personally, with a situation. Thats fine, provided the experience does not prove fatal. Believe me, six months in a hospital bed gives one plenty of time to think. Thats if you've got anything left to think with.

You have no idea of the experiences held within the head on my shoulders so please don't assume make assumptions regarding its content. As for the lecturing, have you actually read your posts? You can present it as a courteous expression of the possible risks but that just sounds like something a politician might say after he's been lecturing.

One issue that hasn't been covered in this debate is fatigue. When one becomes tired, their ability to think and react quickly becomes compromised. As an ex rugby player...

Are we really grasping at those straws now? As a Physical Trainer for the last 13 years in the Navy who has played more sports than I can be bothered listing I think this is really quite petty. If you're driving a car and there's a cyclist on the road in front of you regardless of whether they're on the shoulder or in the middle of the road... don't hit them.

[rustynail]

That is a direct contradiction of of the quote. A young fellow can be said to have an old head on his shoulders but you cant put an old head on young shoulders.

I thought you were doing well up till then RustyNail

Cheers

Doug

Doug, have another look at it. The quotation is " You cant PUT an old head on young shoulders." But a young fellow CAN HAVE an old head on his shoulders. In other words, its his own doing ie experience, that has made him wise. It matters not what age the person is. It is the experiences they have encountered along the way that provide the wisdom. Naturally, one would imagine that an older person would have had more time to accumulate these experiences. But not necessarily so. They could still be as thick as two short planks. Whereas a young chap, with his wits about him, would be able to amass a bit of sense which would make him appear more intelligent than one would expect from one so young. Then he would be referred to as having an old head on his shoulders.
Does that help?

[dabbler]

Does that help?

Nope.

[doug3030]

Doug, have another look at it. The quotation is " You cant PUT an old head on young shoulders."

Well speaking for myself only, I have never heard anyone use a version that reads: "You cant put an old head on young shoulders, except if its your own shoulders." Its always been accepted that it cant be done even to yourself, to the best of my knowledge.

But as for the discussion on the bike laws, I have at different times throughout my life been a pedestrian, cyclist and motorist driving anything from cars to heavy vehicles. It has been my experience that the vast majority of people in all those classes are good, well-mannered people who make allowances for others, make an effort to get along and share the roads, footpaths, tracks and trails. There will always, however be the belligerent few in each camp who refuse to give any ground regardless of the evidence presented by another point of view.

While it is legal to do so, I doubt many motorists in a 110kmh zone would do that speed in extremely heavy rain when two out of three lanes of the road are blocked of due to an accident. Common sense says you just don't do it and you drive to the prevailing conditions.

Just because it is legal to do something, such as riding two-abreast on a pushbike doesn't mean that it is safe to do so under all conditions. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is smart and it certainly is not always considerate of others.

A classic example is cyclists riding two-abreast in a single lane carriageway where they are unnecessarily holding up traffic, just because they feel an entitlement to do so just because they aren't breaking the law. The cyclists would not be greatly inconvenienced by showing common sense and riding in single file under those circumstances and allowing other road users to pass unhindered.

While they aren't breaking the law, there is no justification for doing so when they could show some consideration for other road users by riding single-file until it is safe and sensible as well as not being inconsiderate of others to do so.

Cheers

Doug