Electric, Hybrid or Just Wait

[DomAU]

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied. Drive Feel is highly subjective and is not something even experienced drivers can get used to quickly especially if they have only driven conventional cars.

In 20 years time we’ll be asking ourselves what the fuss was all about.

Shall we talk about driverless cars? I can’t wait. I used to be a very keen driver and would drive anywhere just to go for a drive, now I’d rather be doing something else like sleeping.

Ha. I am for driverless cars for those that don't like to drive and that would prefer to look at their phones. But it'll be a sad day when the enjoyment of driving a car or riding a motorbike is taken from us. I will feel far safer as a cyclist however.

Cheers, Dom

[woodPixel]

An offering for driverless cars will be an absolute goldmine-goldrush-space-explosion for the economy.

-- I will be able to go back to work as my disabled wife no longer needs me as a taxi
-- She will have independence, not having to ask me to drive her to appointments/hospital/places, even though I'm happy to do it
-- Custom cars based on function, rather than generic offerings.... special vehicles for the disabled, ages, immobile, bulky.... face to face like the Sydney trains... Bobbles, large windows, pope mobiles

-- People can pre-book a trip to work, group with others, save money
-- Fewer car parking spots in the city centre!
-- Fewer cars on the road!

-- Deliveries can be entirely automated. Bunnings puts your parcel into Compartment 17 of Auto-Truck and 5 minutes before it arrives a message pops up on your phone "Come and Get It!".... you press a button on the phone, it pops open the door to Compartment 17 with your stuff..... no people! .... off it trundles to the next delivery.

-- Bookings, Wheres My Car, pre-booking, per KM charging, ping for pickup.... all on the phone. Perfection.

-- While some will need a car, most will not.
-- A collection of 20 cars would service 500 people.... less traffic.
-- Less noise. Fewer hoons. Time to sleep, read, email, watch a video, chat with the kids.....
-- Have the kids picked up from a party.... same for if you've had too much pisso at the soiree

-- If it needs a charge, off it goes to a public spot and auto-plugs itself in. Pop these centres around the place.
-- Increased "security" as they can be all mounted with 80 cameras, all beaming a 5G signal to home base in case of ...strife....

There will be no need for tradies to give up their utes... but for the average suburban Joe? Owning a car will be pure stupidity.

For the tradies, why not have auto-cars that are essentially sotrage/delivery boxes? Deliver stuff to the worksite... chuck all the tools into a box at the end of the day and off it trundles to a secure overnight storage (where I live, there have been 2 guys knocked off of EVERYTHING in the last month).

HUGE HUGE HUGE opportunities.

[DJ’s Timber]

Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied.

Bob, no vid link???

[elanjacobs]

Sorry to be "that guy", but fully autonomous is not coming any time soon for a few reasons.

1) The technology is nowhere near ready. Maybe on a closed loop where the autonomous traffic is completely isolated from pedestrians and human drivers, but it's simply not able to cope with a dynamic road at this stage.
2) Liability. Who's responsible in an accident? It can't be you because you're not driving it, so who's it gonna be? The car manufacturer? The software developer? Or maybe it's still you because you're the owner? What if it's a taxi or rental? It's a legal minefield.
3) And this is the big one. In order for a fully autonomous car to be able to navigate a live traffic scenario, where decisions about evasive action will need to be made, ethics has to be mathematically solved. You've probably heard of the Trolley Problem; an autonomous car will need to be able to make that decision, which means that someone (or group of people) will have to write the code that decides who gets to live. Then, every time you get inside, you will have to accept that, based on a computer program written on the other side of the world by people you will never know, your car might decide to swerve into a tree and potentially kill you because someone ran onto the road, or, even worse, because a dodgy sensor or camera thought someone ran onto the road.

These are massive issues that need to be tackled before there's any hope of fully autonomous cars becoming a reality and I don't think it will happen.

[62woollybugger]

Not everyone will like his style, but he lays out the pros & cons very well.
12 things I've learned after driving an electric car 9000km | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube

[NewLou]

Ive got a 2019 Prius and routinely get 3.0 litres per 100km of a 26km commute I love the dam thing best car I have ever owned will step up to another Prius when they upgrade the battery then full electric Tesla after decking out the Roof with Solar Panels with the biggest BAttery I can afford

Im not a spread sheet nutbuster in a binary + - Dollar world To My Mind you cant put a price on reducing your carbon footprint!

Why because of our Kids kids if we dont get our )(*&#$^%(*&#_^*&^ together they will inherit our self centred greed and selfishness ................Well after its to late!


Anywhoooo every little thing we can do helps The Prius also got voted most reliable car of 2020 from memory (From a well regarded consumer survey) Its Not A Rocket but a graceful glider! The Stereo system also ROCKS!

My 5 Cents worth

REgards Lou

[NewLou]

Oh by they way many moons before this I rode nothing but big bore Jap bikes topping out on a ZZR-1100 (FAstest Production Bike at the time) Didnt own a car till 28 who would a thought LOL!

[Spyro]

In terms of car costs nothing beats new car depreciation.
There are some acceptable reasons to buy a new car, saving money is not one of them, that's just something we tell our wives.
You'd have to have a total old guzzler/wreck and replace it with a very cheap new car to *maybe* make that equation work.

In terms of environmental concerns, nothing beats not driving a car as much as possible. Except not owning a car.
Try an electric bike if you can, you might like it. It's a legitimate transportation option if you don't have passengers, but look around you, 90% of the cars on the road only have one person in them.
Moving a tonne of steel just to get one person from A to B is ridiculously wasteful, how often do we really need to do that?

And please don't tell me about speed, it's Australia, slowest speed limits and strictest traffic police in the universe. I can break those speed limits with your average scooter.

Having said all that, if a car makes you happy, it's your passion/hobby/deep desire/whatever, absolutely get that car! Happiness is very important and all the justification that is required.
I just don't like rationalising it with other stuff, in my experience rationalisations lead to unhappiness.

[smidsy]

I don't see the point in having an electric car when you have to charge it from a fossil fuel burning powerstation - it's like arguing a murder charge on the basis that you used a knife instead of a gun.

My sis in Norway has had electric cars (currently 2 Teslas) for many years, and the Norwegian government embraces them with free parking & tolls, lower rego and sales tax plus other benefits - but Norway gets most of their power from hydro-electric so it IS clean energy.
To me, as long they're being charged from a fossil fuel burning power source electric cars are tokenism.

[Bushmiller]

I don't see the point in having an electric car when you have to charge it from a fossil fuel burning powerstation - it's like arguing a murder charge on the basis that you used a knife instead of a gun.

My sis in Norway has had electric cars (currently 2 Teslas) for many years, and the Norwegian government embraces them with free parking & tolls, lower rego and sales tax plus other benefits - but Norway gets most of their power from hydro-electric so it IS clean energy.
To me, as long they're being charged from a fossil fuel burning power source electric cars are tokenism.

Smidsy

After being the harbinger of doom, I think you nailed the issue in your second and third paragraphs. It depends entirely on the source of the mains power electricity. So hydro, solar and wind generated power represents a real benefit in terms of reducing greenhouse gases. Having said that, the efficiencies of thermal coal (or gas) fired power stations are still better than a petrol or diesel powered car so there will be a small benefit.

Although, a self confessed fan of solar power, it is short sighted to think there will be an instantaneous transition. An electric car purchased today may still reap the benefit down the track.

Just for amusement The White Zombie is a 1972 Datsun that was converted to electric power back in the nineties way before EVs became cool (if they are cool that is). My memory is that the creator used to drive it around on the street as his everyday transport. Here are a few videos of this car that looks similar to the one your favourite, ancient auntie drives to the shops.


White Zombie vs maserati - YouTube

Running On Lithium: White Zombie vs. Corvette - YouTube

White Zombie Electric Dragster Coming to Auto Show 2011 - YouTube

The White Zombie with Lithium polymer battery pack - YouTube

Instant full torque in an electric motor means that in a drag race all the damage is done in the first two hundred meters while the combustion engines are still building revs. However, it would probably be a different result over a standing mile.

Just in case you think I am full of electrical bullmanure, I am. My disclaimer is that I work as an operator in a coal-fired, supercritical power station. I like to think I am a realist both in terms of fossil fuels and renewables.

Regards
Paul

[q9]

This is going to be very Japan specific, but maybe worth a 'what if?'

Our solution here is simply to not own a car. We pay about $10/month for access to share cars that are all over the place, booked through an app. We make use of that about 4-6 times a year. For holidays, we rent a car for a month, that suits the number of passengers and what we intend to do with it. 2 people driving around staying in hotels? Small car will do. Camping/skiing with friends? Lets get something a bit bigger/more roomy. Need to move? Hire van for the day, or biggest people mover the car share service has. Done. Train/bike/walk for everything else. Not only do we save depreciation, maintenance, insurance etc etc, parking here can cost easily $3-4k p/a on it's own, unless you have a house.

No brainer.

I'd still like to own one though

[elanjacobs]

I don't see the point in having an electric car when you have to charge it from a fossil fuel burning powerstation

Because the emissions are STILL lower than a petrol car.

[Bernmc]

RACV publish car running costs every year. There's a basic calculator at the bottom of this page. Limited models, but you can get a decent representation.

2019 Car Running Costs | RACV.

$500 odd a week for a Tesla is still a bit steep for me unfortunately

[elver]

Glider,

Well looking at the thread I didn’t see anyone who actually has an electric car. (Just a whole lot of schnitzel re Tesla blah blah or can’t recycle blah blah - this is all just delaying tactics. )

I do have an electric car. 2017 Nissan Leaf ex Japan.

Purchased mid this year, $30k with 14000 km on it. Looked basically new, had full battery capacity. It’s cheap because Japanese govt subsidises them so when you buy an import you get the value of that subsidy in depreciating their second hand market. And the Japanese love to keep cars really well. (Import was by a retired Gold Coast importer who now does imports to top up pension still)

So it does 250km easily. Meter says it will do 276km (ymmv)
I charge from my solar power at home. If it doesn’t charge from sun I top it off with coal at night before a trip.
Bowser fill up is free from NRMA fast chargers (45mins) and $11 from the Chargefox network. Drive 250km, plug car in, drink coffee, eat something, stretch legs then drive on - no big deal. No more servo pies. An unintended consequence is you eat better food on road trips because you make time to.

40000 km between services. Yup that’s what the manual says. So that’s probably 5 or 6 ever. (No wonder the car industry is scared of these - it’s their push to change and they don’t want to)

I bought this when my 12 year old daughter said to me ‘dad, if we’ve got the tech to not burn fossil fuels why don’t you adults just man up and stop ruining the world a you guys got all the good stuff and your leaving the place in ruins for me? ‘ so someone’s got to man up and get off the crack of oil and coal, and I may as well start at home.

From my calcs at time of purchase the cost per km including depreciation is $0.32 per km, same as my Hyundai IX35 while Tesla was something like $2 per km. Even when fuelled by my “free” (more like prepaid) solar power. So net $0 cost to change to non polluting fuels. The only issue was is the range good enough, and with some searching the 30kW leaf was a good fit.

I didn’t go hybrid as they mostly need to burn fuel to run AC, and sitting is a sweaty car should be something left in the 80’s. And, I think hybrids are just a gateway drug to oil. You need cold turky to get off the oil based thinking.

So, $ wise purchase comparable to a new mid sized car.
Distance - gets me to where I need to be (reliable 200km range) but won’t do home to Sydney (600km) in the same time. The charging chews up hours of the trip and as a non cooled battery pack fast charging heats it up and trims mileage, so not good for the trip times)
Cost to run- gets pretty darn close to nothing on solar (I only feed it power above my export cap so it’s power that never would have got made if I hadn’t jammed it in the car. )

This is our second car- we have a big diesel to do the odd massive run / tow-camper.

Oh - at home we charge from a 15amp standard power point. Trickle charge is just fine. I have a timer. Turns on power at 10 and off at 3 so charges when I hit export limit.

Lastly - compared to household battery this is waaaay better at reducing total emissions. We burn 6kw of power from the grid per day (4ppl). That’s equivalent to the emissions from something like 20km driving. (Most people burn much more than that) So if it’s co2 that gets you thinking, fix the car emissions before the residual power emissions once you have a full roof of solar panels.

Oh - and if you don’t have a roof covered in solar panels, and I mean covered, your literally missing the best ROI out there at present. $ for $ they are the best thing you can do if you have $5k sitting in the bank or a term deposit etc.
Don’t let export limiting cripple your thoughts on solar sizing - it’s rainy day export you want to aim for, and while the Govt is giving away panels max out your house roof and capture it in the house in the car and get ready for cheaper batteries for the house in the future. My system produces 1 to 2 kW/he on a rainy day, and with some thinking that covers all our power needs when the sun is up.

My next step is vehicle to grid to power the house at night. The Leaf is one of the few cars configured to do that out of the box.

[crowie]

Just a side issue!

What ever happened to Hydrogen Powered cars running on tap water??