Wooden Knife Handles

[Manuka Jock]

Conwood , you could use drawbore pegs

[Hop Thief]

conwood: I've heard them called a few different names.
- Loveless bolts
- Corby bolts
- Birdseye bolts
- Fisheye bolts

I think they're all the same thing as each other, not sure though.

The British Blades forums is a wonderfull source of knife making knowledge. I came here because I thought it might be a more appropriate forum for woodtalk. Which it has definitely proven to be. I've learnt quite abit since the start of this topic.

I bought the bolts I'll be using with the blade so other than that I don't know where to buy the bolts. They'd be pretty basic to make if you had some bolt and nut diameter brass rod, the appropriate tap and die set and a little ability. But for the expense of the bolts it was way simpler for me to buy them with the blade so I suppose that is hardly useful advice, but if you happened to have all these things then that's how you'd get some... That's what I'd do if I needed a couple of extra ones anyhow.

But definitely check out british blades, they'll steer you in the right direction better than I could if you ask them a question.

Stabilised wood: The stabilising process sounds a little bit too involved for this project. I think I will go with the more rugged approach of using the oil, it sounds as though the oil will give the the desired finish with simple effort and a little follow up care which I am more than happy to apply.

All the same I am very thankful to have some understanding of what goes into stabilised wood and how it is made. It doesn't sound too tricky but it does sound like it's a little more of a modern finish than I desire. I may try that finish in the future though depending on how well the oil holds up to the test of time.

Manuka Jock: Those drawbore pegs sound like a clever idea, like a wooden version of split pins and such.

[Manuka Jock]

Yep , they are great eh.
Good for cabinet making , in mortise and tenon joints to draw the join tight .
One trick is to drill the tenon holes ( in the case of a blade tang and scales , it would be the scale holes ) slightly off center in opposite directions .
The pegs then work like crimps.
I used them once on a small cleaver handle , worked a treat

Here is a link to a blog about using them on a stool .

[China]

conwood look here Australasian Knife Collectors Club

[son_of_bluegras]

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

[son_of_bluegras]

Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute and you come across as if I'm wrong. I've backed what I've said with my experiences and testing. I'm just asking you to do the same instead of relying on theory.
Without further evidence I'm quite satisfied with the surface protection I've seen with linseed oil. And I stand by my claim that linseed oil does not stabilize wood, it is a surface treatment only.

If you aren't interested in knowing just how much protection your hot oil provides your bowls, so be it. I wanted to know what kind of protection my methods provide. This way if someone is interested in buying something I've made and has questions I can feel confident my answers are correct based on my experiences and testing.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute
ron

What claim ?

[son_of_bluegras]

What claim ?

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised

That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron

What exactly is your experience son_of_bluegras ?
How much actual plunging wood into extremely hot linseed oil and leaving it there until all the air and moisture has been driven out , displaced by the extremely hot linseed oil , until the bubbles stop , until the wood is totality impregnated with the oil have you done ?
Enlighten us with the wealth of your knowledge from your practical work in this field.
If you have not done any practical , and note that I used the word practical , and not the word theoretical , work in this field , by what right do you challenge me and mine ?.

And as for this

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

What 'support' will ever be enough to satisfy you and the circles you are runing around in ?
Apart from ring fencing the definition of wood stabilisation to suit yourself what contribution have you made to this thread ?
Hop Thief is wanting assistance with natural , non synthetic ways of stabilizing the wood for his knife handle .
Given that you do not have anything to offer , why are you here , other than to act the troll ?

son_of_bluegras , if you want to extol the merits of chemical wood treatments , why don't you go away and start a thread on the subject , and then you will not have to be a nuisance on this one .

[jmk89]

This looks like it is getting a bit heated, guys. Please keep things polite.

[Manuka Jock]

The oil is heated here , not sure what is over there

[son_of_bluegras]

What exactly is your experience son_of_bluegras ?
How much actual plunging wood into extremely hot linseed oil and leaving it there until all the air and moisture has been driven out , displaced by the extremely hot linseed oil , until the bubbles stop , until the wood is totality impregnated with the oil have you done ?
Enlighten us with the wealth of your knowledge from your practical work in this field.
If you have not done any practical , and note that I used the word practical , and not the word theoretical , work in this field , by what right do you challenge me and mine ?.

I haven't used hot oil. Never claimed to. That is why I asked the questions I did. I want to know. Yes, I could do the testing myself, I expect it will take 4 to 6 months. You have at your disposal the opportunity to enlighten us all now. You've said you've done it with bowls and mentioned Treen. I don't see where you've mentioned what kind of use any of this has seen. Do you use them regularly or do they sit on a shelf? I don't know, thus I ask.
I have mention the results of the tests I've preformed. I'll admit I haven't gone into the details of the tests. But you haven't even mention any actual usage or testing you've done.
I have carried daily and used frequently knives I've made with the handles preserved with linseed oil. Thus my suggestion to reapply once a year, that is what I've experienced.

And as for this
What 'support' will ever be enough to satisfy you and the circles you are runing around in ?
Apart from ring fencing the definition of wood stabilisation to suit yourself what contribution have you made to this thread ?
Hop Thief is wanting assistance with natural , non synthetic ways of stabilizing the wood for his knife handle .
Given that you do not have anything to offer , why are you here , other than to act the troll ?

son_of_bluegras , if you want to extol the merits of chemical wood treatments , why don't you go away and start a thread on the subject , and then you will not have to be a nuisance on this one .

The definition of stabilization I provided is not my own. It is what I've seen on the websites of sellers of professionally stabilized wood. It is what the knife makers and pen makers I've talked to expect from stabilized wood.
What definition would you prefer?

What support do you have? All you've said is you've dunked bowls in hot linseed oil and that is works for Treen. What kind of use have these bowls seen? Do they get used? Have you washed them in hot, soapy water? Have they been through a dishwasher?

As for what I've offered, look back at my first post. I stated on the knives I've made the handles were finished with either linseed oil or linseed oil and wax mixed together. I've put forth the information I have on stabilized wood. I've mentioned some wood needs no finish, though I don't know what is local to Australia, I mentioned a couple that I do know of. Is that not enough information of value?

I'm just trying to understand if what you are doing is actually better than what I'm doing. If so then I will change my ways. But you won't answer my questions. You haven't said you haven't tested your process to know if it is better. You haven't even qualified how you've used your bowls to give anyone an idea of what your hot oil may be capable of. Instead you resort to calling me a troll for honestly seeking knowledge when I suggest we agree to disagree.

I do agree that I helped take this thread off of the original question in that pursuit of knowledge and for that I apologize to the forum.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Ron , if you haven't immersed any wood in extremely hot Linseed oil ( by that I mean boiling linseed oil . I use that sort of phrasing so that folks do not think that I am talking about so called 'boiled linseed oil and are not aware that it is a chemical solution ) , why have you been decrying the method and giving average depth penetration measurements for it ?

I am not going to destroy my bowls just to satisfy your curiosity .
If you wish to contract me to do your testing for you , ok , but my skills do not come cheap.
In the past I have split test pieces and noted that the results depend on many variables. Species of tree , type -Hard , Soft wood , location - heart , sap . age of wood , shape thickness , length etc . In most instances the penetration is further in than the thickness of anything that I need to use this method on .
Given that I am using this for working treen, very little of it will be greater than an inch thick.
I have already said the the wood ( bowl or otherwise ) stays in the very very hot ( Boiling ) linseed oil until the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, and if possible for practical reasons , until it cools down.
( When the wood get lowered into the oil it erupts like chips ( fries) in a pan , so the whole process can take a few hours . In the very early stages of curing / drying , if the outside of the bowl is held near heat , oil sweats on the inside and visa versa )
So what does all that tell you ?

PS . I should note here that I do not treat all my wares with this method , or that I soak the item that full length of time . The intended use if the thing is a deciding factor there .
( Not that I can foresee what the end user will actually do with it )

The general definitions of stabilize are along the lines of ,
To make stable or steadfast.
To maintain the stability of
To keep from fluctuating
To fix the nature of
In terms of wood , that refers to shrinkage , cracking , splitting , warping , cupping twisting , etc.
And that gets extended to preventing the same happening in the future ,
ie. waterproofing and the like .
If some people for reasons best known to themselves , redefine the meaning to enable to sell their wood plasticizing products , you best take that up with them ,


Why would you expect this to take 4 -6 months ? You have no knowledge , theoretical or practical, of the process yet you make such a comment .
On what do you base that ?

Why on earth would a sane individual go to such lengths , only to put the product of their endeavor up on a shelf somewhere ?
Is that what you do ?
Why do you assume that I do not do any testing or that I do not put my wares to use ?
Is that what you don't do ?
I did not call you a troll , I asked you why you were acting the troll .
Why do you do that ?

[son_of_bluegras]

Ron , if you haven't immersed any wood in extremely hot Linseed oil ( by that I mean boiling linseed oil . I use that sort of phrasing so that folks do not think that I am talking about so called 'boiled linseed oil and are not aware that it is a chemical solution ) , why have you been decrying the method and giving average depth penetration measurements for it ?

I didn't. I gave measurements for what testing I've done. I asked you what you've done to test the penetration of hot oil and stated that with my experience with oil I would not expect it to go beyond 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm).

I am not going to destroy my bowls just to satisfy your curiosity .
If you wish to contract me to do your testing for you , ok , but my skills do not come cheap.
In the past I have split test pieces and noted that the results depend on many variables. Species of tree , type -Hard , Soft wood , location - heart , sap . age of wood , shape thickness , length etc . In most instances the penetration is further in than the thickness of anything that I need to use this method on .
Given that I am using this for working treen, very little of it will be greater than an inch thick.
I have already said the the wood ( bowl or otherwise ) stays in the very very hot ( Boiling ) linseed oil until the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, and if possible for practical reasons , until it cools down.
( When the wood get lowered into the oil it erupts like chips ( fries) in a pan , so the whole process can take a few hours . In the very early stages of curing / drying , if the outside of the bowl is held near heat , oil sweats on the inside and visa versa )
So what does that tell you ?

That tells me you have done some testing. It tells me that your works are thin enough for the oil to reach the center. It does not tell me if the oil that has made it to the center of your work cured. In my experience, the depth that the oil will cure is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3mm).

The general definitions of stabilize are along the lines of ,
To make stable or steadfast.
To maintain the stability of
To keep from fluctuating
To fix the nature of
In terms of wood , that refers to shrinkage , cracking , splitting , warping , cupping twisting , etc.
And that gets extended to preventing the same happening in the future ,
ie. waterproofing and the like .
If some people for reasons best know to themselves , redefine the meaning to enable to sell their wood plasticizing products you best take that up with them ,

To make stable. To me that in part means no or minimal changes with environmental changes. From my experience wood still expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity with linseed oil applied. The piece of professionally stabilized wood I've worked with had very minimal changes, much less than the same species with any of the finishes I had on hand (a spar varnish, linseed oil, wax and polyurethane). It follows then that the wood is not stable.

Why would you expect this to take 4 -6 months ? You have no knowledge , theoretical or practical, of the process yet you make such a comment .
On what do you base that ?
Why on earth would a sane individual go to such lengths , only to put the product of their endeavor up on a shelf somewhere ?
Is that what you do ?
Why do you assume that I do not do any testing or that I do not put my wares to use ?
Is that what you don't do ?
I did not call you a troll , I asked you why you were acting the troll .
Why do you do that ?

I would expect it to take that long because I would expect 2 or 4 weeks of initial curing until I could no longer smell oil, that has been my experience working with raw linseed oil. Then I would cut it open to see how deep the oil penetrated and if it cured fully. I would not expect it to have cured to the greatest depth of penetration. That has been my experience with grapevine where the oil from a room temperature soak penetrated to a bit over 1/4 inch (about 6 mm). But it wasn't cured at that depth. I tested that by poking with a clean dry toothpick then dragging that across a piece of glass. It left a streak which does not happen with a clean toothpick. Doing the same to the surface left no streak, indicating the oil on the surface cured.
At this point I would set the piece aside for several months to give the oil a chance to cure.

I use what I make. Until this post you haven't said one way or the other. If I inadvertently implied that you do not test your wares or that you do not use them in my questioning, I apologize.
I'm just trying to find answers to my questions, I thought they were straight forward.

Your right, you did say I was acting the troll. A difference of semantics, but I was technically wrong so I apologize.

If you really think I'm being a nuisance for asking questions, then I can go away.

ron