Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?

[ian]

I have had a hell of a last few days and in addition to the fact that I need to vent I thought it might be interesting to get some opinions. As many would know I am a primary teacher. In the last two days I have been acting admin and have had the need to suspend 4 kids yesterday and 4 again today (different kids). On both days I have been kicked, hit and sworn at with language that would make most of you blush. This is in addition to other instances on the two days that have included having chairs thrown at me, attempts at desks thrown at me, water squirted in my face, spat on and having to physically restrain kids. Lets just say that today ended with the police in attendance, and that was from another student related issue that was not mentioned above.

The consensus usually is that the behaviours are generally learnt at home and many of these kids come from difficult environments. The behaviours are so ingrained that despite the kids knowing they are supported at school and that you genuinely care for them, they will turn in an instant. But realistically where does the buck stop, who can fix it?

Personally, I really feel for the kids who take on board the support they get at my school and work to better themselves with so much negative distraction within the classroom. I believe that the current politically correct agender that insists that all students be allowed to attend regular schools is stealing knowledge from many kids who want to learn at school. I think that most of society is unaware of the current goings on within the school system in many low demographic areas and if they new the truth, change would be demanded.

Ahhhh, that feels better, rant over, now to go and arrange the interschool team

Some quotes from parents:
"he gets board easily, you need to entertain him"

"I don't really care if he can't read or write, as long as he does not walk down the street and stab someone"

to respond to the last quote first, if the kid can't read or write he will be unemployable and will almost certainly resort to armed robbery (stabbing people) to support himself.

more generally, I find the bits I've highlighed in your first post incredulous.
In NSW, the Work Cover legislation extends to schools. This legislation imposes a requirement that the employer (Department of Education) ensure the health and safety of all employees and visitors to a work site (schools are work sites).
What I can't fathom is how the behavious you (and others) mention can be tollerated. If it happened in any other work environment the perpetrator(s) would be permanently excluded, if not locked up.

So why do schools tollerate this unacceptable behaviour?


ian

[Ashore]

When I went to school some of the teachers should have been up on assult charges , I had one that always had a monday hangover and found a reason to cane the whole class girls included in fact they suffered more. that was age 9 my wife went via that big religious school system and still carries the scars from being taught and disiplined by untrained sisters.
I am not alone in this and I feel the knee jerk reaction was to make sure our kids never suffered as we did, however the whole thing has gone too far and today its the teachers that are in danger far more than the kids.
The teachers rights as well as there ability to controle a student have been taken away and at the same time the snivel libertarians have removed the ability of the police to deal with the problem or the law to punish offenders. Kids are smarter and understand their rights far better than I did at the same age but that is no excuse for the assults you hear about or can see on the web. they take delight in filming asults on phones then displaying it on the web.
Parents to blame easy to say but with two income families or the way the dole was for years incouraging single parents and the more the better the trad family values have become something of the past in many households and kids are bought up far differntly than I was

Who is to blame , who indeed , I'm dammed if I know

[Gingermick]

There's the old adage: "spare the rod, spoil the child."

There is also a new adage "Spoil the child, then spare the rod"

[Sebastiaan56]

Weve always been very clear with our boys about the boundaries of what is acceptable and not acceptable. From birth. Neither has ever been spanked or physically punished in any way. They appear to be growing up very nicely, the eldest got a "rapidly becoming the whole package" from his teacher. We will see how they go as the hormones kick in.

As to whether it is nature or nurture I truly do not know. My best mate raised a bright girl who is now a street kid by her choice. Another one a son now in Long Bay. Both these guys are straight, sensible and intelligent. I think genetics is a part of the puzzle but not all of it. I had an arab family (mum with veil and three kids) in the shop the other day and the 9yo boy was a pest. I told him to stop ordering his mother around, the look he gave me was murderous, he didnt stop. She couldnt/didnt stop him either!! Pity the female teachers stuck with that little mess of a person.

Now, why should our teachers have to put up with the kind of appalling behaviour. I wouldnt, but Im not that politically correct either. They shouldnt, they see the effects of the other 18hrs per day of the kids life so they can report more accurately. They are smart people and can look after themselves and Im sure that this behaviour is the exception to the rule.

Sebastiaan

[wheelinround]

The buck stops with the parents. How often do we hear that? Its the parents to blame for the behavior of their children when they become teenagers. how often do we hear that?
Well I have heard it over and over and I am happy for those of you that made your methods of bringing up your children successful but I can tell you here and now, most of the problem is in the child itself and what is in the child, you wont get out of it. OK so it worked for some, or so we think, because their children are a pillar of society. Well thats fine thinking, but how do we know if the child would not have turned out that way anyway.
We all believe we do the right thing bringing up our kids, all of us. but you can only teach them right from wrong and tell them the right things to do and teach them good moral values. BUT IF ITS THAT EASY how come two children brought up in the same home, almost the same age, going to the same schools and being taught by their parents exactly the same values, ideas and ideals, become two totally different children in their behavioral patterns. I can cite you many instances where two children brought up in this way differ so much in their way of life.
I can speak from personal experience where two boys brought up in the same home by the same parents and had exactly the same upbringing and those two boys turned out totally opposites. One had a work ethic and worked all hours he could and became successful in his life, owning his own business and settled down with a family of his own.
His brother turned to crime, drugs and was dishonest in every way. Just the opposite to his brother and ended up killing himself at 38 years of age.
I know of many families where this sort of thing has happened to their children. One child takes one direction and the other takes an opposite direction. One is good and one is bad. Surely this dispels the idea that the buck stops with the parents. Parents can only do so much.
And as for those that think our kids are perfect angels all the time, I say to you, please don't fool yourself. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones and it has worked for you. Believe me there are plenty of parents out there who believer their child is the perfect child or teenager but when those same kids are out with their friends, they take on a different personality. Most children behave in front of their parents, the way they know their parents want them to act. Its a different story when they go out the front door.

Young Stirlo said in an earlier post here that the only person to blame for his behavior is himself, and when it boils down to it, thats the cold, hard truth. We are all responsible for our own actions and must take the consequences for those actions. Its the decision of each individual within himself as to what path he or she will take. You can't blame other people, Peer pressure, what a load of crap, I had the opportunity to take drugs when I was young but nothing anyone could say or do would make me take that path, That was my decision. Others I knew chose to accept drugs and that was their decision. Nobody made them take the drug. The only person responsible for that action is the person who made the decision to take that path.
I knew boys my own age who thought it was funny to throw a stone through a shop window just for the fun of it and these were children brought up in a good home and environment. I wouldn't dream of doing that. So what causes it. I don'.t know but I do know that everyone is responsible for their own behavior in this world.
Oh yes we have bad influences on the movies. but don't think for one moment that there wasn't bad influences in my young days too. We saw movies with killings, murders and fighting in the westerns we watched, it didn't make us go out and shoot anyone, It was a movie. We had a brain, for gods sake it was a movie, a world of make believe.
Who else can we blame. We blame the movies, the government, the parents, the teachers. Whatever happened to commonsense, aren't we suppose to use that any more, don't our children know right from wrong any more. For crying out loud, The kid is being what he wants to be. The answer lies within himself. No matter what we do or say, you will never change what that individual really wants to be.

brava John Burnsy I am not knocking you as a teacher kids get irratabel think of yourself at times in your life, fights, and kids being kids. There maybe underlying situations behind it all not anything to do with parents at all. Peer presure, sibling's or even just listening to news.

I hated one situation at school yr 6 where both a good mate and I were split up we were both reasonable students and sat with 2 of the classes worst and backward kids to help them along. These two boys went on to be owners of their own business. Yep one a concrete with a large council contract, the other left the area hi parents were already in business good pillars of the community.
The local major of the Salvo's had 3 sons one whom became such a dero druggy he near died 3 times he is now a Economics Busninesman partner in a firm. One of the other sons was a fantastic musician no idea what happend with him lost contact.

I have seen with all the areas I have lived in from the time of arrival in Australia to even today, all the educational tours I have done region, status and income have nothing to do with behavour. Kids like adults have bad days, sleepless nights, stress etc.

TV what kid watches TV these days try PC, Net, Games plus responsibilities at home the preasure gets to us all.


Just to point out even tho Australia's richest man is well supposedly well educated he has dyslexia as did his father and grandfather, he is into gambling and owns many casino's. His opposite is from a broken family a media barron both of who are in court for legal reasons BREAKING the law. A Judge tries to con his way out of of all things a speading fine this is a well educated man member of the law society.

Some whom have gone through tough times find what is regarded by many as the right path and change then there are those like the execs of HIH who are still in jail all private school boys all well educated all from good families.

Burnsye I believe your the type who is also a good teacher don't let this destroy your ideals please I have seen too many teachers have this done.

[Andy Mac]

I sort of had a vague feeling this type of classroom behaviour existed, but limited to high schools, not primary level. Head in the sand I suppose, esp. with all this ADHD stuff. I feel for you Burnsy, must be taking the shine off the job you hoped to achieve.
I haven't heard of anything like this where my 2 girls are, but its in a pretty good area and seems well resourced.
As for kids knowing what is bad behaviour, surely they must...I know I did when I was a primary school kid! Throwing stones at street lights was wrong. Full stop. Only tried that once, but like a couple of posters here I copped a good flooging with a belt on bare bum whenever I transgressed the boundaries at home! Copped the 1yard ruler regularly in school, and various canes on bum and palm in high school (hand in state school, bum in private...is there something in that!?) It did seem sadistic at the time, but was never an outright beating till you bleed, and didn't leave a scar, apart from mental one that still says don't push your luck! I can see that the unfettered use of corporal punishment by undisciplined teachers could escalate into abuse, and no doubt has prompted it to be banned...but at what cost?
For the teachers out there on the coal face, does much credence get put on diet as a contributing factor in bad behaviour, particularly in ADHD?

Regards,

[SPIRIT]

l work in two diffrent high schools working with the kids that just can't fit in and have come across some harded teenagers ,just yesterday we were haveing a chat about school and life and stuff when the nick name the kids have in the comunity (stabbers)came out ,bloody hell what is this all about then,they tell me they all harry knifes and screwdrivers then it went on to the war they are haveing with onther school ,they weren't jocking beatings were comen between them .

Now were do we start to rebiuld the system ,a lot of kids do not respond to a standed education system they feel locked up
yelling ,hitting ,suspending sometime do more harm than good ,some kids have a non loveing lifestyle that makes you feel sad
some kids just need a roll modle a mentour if you like .Primary schools can fill this gap but saddly the boys are the ones that need help at the moment but the primary department is top heavy with females and in high schools they only get to see each student for such a short time

say 30 kids for 50min x5 how long does that give the teacher to find out where the kid is commimg from

to end this on a happy note the ten young people we have in the program l have got though to two (fingers crossed)now they care what somebody thinks of them, now this didn't happen with a little sit down and talk and they saw the light it has taken near 100 hrs of working together and talking with them not at them

number one thing all people should learn is right from wrong ,a lot have no idea

SS please don't use spastic in that way l also work with people with disabilty and its a bit like the nigger word to them.

[namtrak]

Unconditional love is all any kid wants. End of story.

[Gra]

more generally, I find the bits I've highlighed in your first post incredulous.
In NSW, the Work Cover legislation extends to schools. This legislation imposes a requirement that the employer (Department of Education) ensure the health and safety of all employees and visitors to a work site (schools are work sites).
What I can't fathom is how the behavious you (and others) mention can be tollerated. If it happened in any other work environment the perpetrator(s) would be permanently excluded, if not locked up.

So why do schools tollerate this unacceptable behaviour?
ian

Ian,

You been to a hospital recently, Nurses are regularly assaulted and charges are rearly press because "They are sick". The local hospital employs ARMED security guards in the A&E area, and it isn't just the patients

A real life example, at the hospital my wife works at a Dr got mad because he couldnt find the paper that was supplied by the hospital in the tea room, so he ripped a phone out of the wall and threw it across the room. The hospitals response.

Send all the nursing staff on anger management courses, not the doctors the nurses

PS My wife refused to go until the Dr's were also sent, she still hasn't gone

[silentC]

Well, I think it's a combination of lots of things, including a clear decline in standards of teaching (in my opinion). Some of the spelling and grammar mistakes I see from teacher communications is a bit of a concern (including in some posts here). I'm not having a go at the individuals, but I just expect that these things would be much better than they seem to be. But then things like spelling, grammar and times-tables just don't seem to be as important these days as they were made to seem when I was a kid.

My 8yo daughter last night had some homework to do regarding time. She had no idea that an hour has 60 minutes, or how many minutes in a quarter of an hour. The questions were along the lines of "what time will it be 1 hour after 7:15". She couldn't do it. I guess I just expected that these would be basic things taught in class. I asked her if the teacher ever checked her homework - no he doesn't.

Discipline is a word that carries connotations of authority and punishment. But there is a lot more to it. Discipline is also about paying attention in class, working hard to understand, stretching your limits. My daughter needs to be pushed, the teachers just aren't doing it. She will cruise along because she's in the middle of the class but she could be a lot better with a bit of discipline. Her personality is to be easily distracted - a bit of a dreamy kid like I was. I remember getting a clip under the ear on more than one occasion from a teacher who thought I wasn't paying attention.

For our part as parents, we are a bit slack with them, I know. It's too easy to just let them watch TV or play video games. I make them go outside and play pirates or soldiers or whatever they want. They have a ball once they get out there but making them move off the couch can be a real effort.

If I found out one of our kids was abusive or violent towards anyone at school, particularly a person in authority, it would have very grave consequences for them - they'd be deprived of their freedom or have favourite toys confiscated. The problem is that so many parents apparently don't give a stuff what their kids do.

I think it's a combination of lifestyle, exposure to images in the media, lack of discipline from parents and teachers, the acceptance of mediocre performance in school, and a shift of focus on 'what's important' in the education system. There may even be physiological affects of diet and environment that are turning kids into angry, short tempered loonies. I don't know.

Wish someone had the answer.

[Zed]

I feel there is no easy answer.

I was mistreated at school and at home by my old man.

I got in trouble, I got out of trouble. but I was smart - I worked out why I got caught and worked around it. I got caned, whipped, flogged, teased, bastardised. by everyone (except mum - bless her!) the lot.

I dont feel there are any easy answers - each kid is different, and have to be treated as such.

whos fault was it ? EVERYONE involved. Humans are meat eaters, meat eaters are smart, aggressive, domineering and social animals. It's in our blood...

I think you just gotta take responsibility for your own actions and your own kids. I at least have a good role model for my kid - I know what went wrong for me and I just have to follow the opposite path. he might turn into a bad person, but I hope he wont. I just hope im up to doing the right thing and showing him the right way.

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.

what a depressing subject!!!!!!!

[munruben]

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.

Thats all you can do Zed. Teach your children what you believe in and point them in the right direction and hope they turn out a better person for it. Thats all any of us can do.The rest is up to the child.

[Sebastiaan56]

Wish someone had the answer.

I dont have it all, I do know that kids model the behaviour of those around them and particularly those they respect. Essentially they feed our own behaviour back to us until they reach the age when peers count for more, teenage years I think,

[Zed]

youth is wasted on the young.

[Rossluck]

This may be off-track a little, and I apologise in advance, but I'm sure that teachers also need to take a few lessons from history. I refer specifically to the huge numbers of people in our society who were misjudged by teachers and were "written off" as "average" or "not likely to succeed at a high leverl" and so on.

I listen daily to an ABC radio program by Richard Fidler, called "Conversation Hour" (11 am). It absolutely amazes me the number of highly successful people he talks with were rejected in such a way by judgemental teachers. Surgeons, Billionaires, writers, actors, lawyers, (yes, and even programmers) were all told at school that they were "average".