Presumption Of Innocence

[pawnhead]

As for terrorists, the violent kind need to be located and dealt with, preemptively..., risky when you get it wrong..... after an event.....,

Very risky, as this whole debacle in Iraq has taught us. Just where are these WMDs?

Here’s an article that I found posted in another forum. It’s a long, but interesting read;

Iraq Vets Bear Witness

"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi, you know, so what?”

"The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population that was supporting them,"

“So you've just humiliated this man in front of his entire family and terrorized his entire family and you've destroyed his home. And then you go right next door and you do the same thing in a hundred homes."

"We don't go around like detectives and ask questions. We kick down doors, we go in, we grab people."

In the thousand or so raids he conducted during his time in Iraq, Sergeant Westphal said, he came into contact with only four "hard-core insurgents."

“Oh, this is a guy planting a roadside bomb'--and you don't even know if it's him or not--you just go in there and kick the ???? out of him and take him in the back of a five-ton--take him to jail."

"They were wearing Arab clothing and military-style boots, they were considered enemy combatants and you would cuff 'em and take 'em in,"

"I remember on some raids, anybody of military age would be taken,"

"I knew that a large percentage of these prisoners were innocent,"

Specialist Murphy said one prisoner, a mentally impaired, blind albino who could "maybe see a few feet in front of his face" clearly did not belong in Abu Ghraib. "I thought to myself, What could he have possibly done?"

They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got an MRE spoon. He's reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and he's smiling. And I said, 'These are some of our soldiers desecrating somebody's body. Something is seriously amiss.'

"a lot of guys really supported that whole concept that, you know, if they don't speak English and they have darker skin, they're not as human as us, so we can do what we want."

(Lots of other gruesome stuff. Murders, brutality etc.)

Last September, Senator Patrick Leahy, then ranking member of the Judiciary Committee, called a Pentagon report on its procedures for recording civilian casualties in Iraq "an embarrassment." "It totals just two pages," Leahy said, "and it makes clear that the Pentagon does very little to determine the cause of civilian casualties or to keep a record of civilian victims."

pity the political masters with the brief.

I suppose we’ve got to be thankful that it's not as bad as that in Australia.

Good onya Johnny boy. Keep supporting Bush with that brief:
“…it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. … All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.” - Hermann Goering

[Grunt]

The laws that are passed in the name of fighting terrorism is just frightening.

Bush has just signed an executive order criminalising the anti-war movement.

(i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:
(A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of Iraq; or
(B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people;
(ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order; or
(iii) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to this order.

Link

Fricken scary really.

[TEEJAY]

No Silent, show some compassion. He clearly isn't hiding.

That photo is a picture of a man in despair.

Do you blame him? He was being transported to his new digs, and they'd just told him that his new home is just outside....

IPSWICH!!

Cheers,

P

Could have been a lot worse really - could have been just INSIDE Ipswich

[Bleedin Thumb]

The laws that are passed in the name of fighting terrorism is just frightening.

Bush has just signed an executive order criminalising the anti-war movement.



Fricken scary really.

Its just as bad here where our own personal freedoms has been eroded by the government in the name of "the war on terror" when as now is being demonstrated the government can't be trusted to administer justice.

Our forefathers fought real wars, shed blood and died to protect our freedom and our civil rights how come these rights can be wiped away with the stroke of a pen without consulting the population by some politician who is morally and ideologically bankrupt?

Do we need a bill of rights in this county?...America has one I think and it doesn't seem to be helping over there.

How can we enshrine basic human and legal rights in our constitution to protect us from political whims or politicians who don't have the peoples best interest at heart?

The way things are going, if we don't correct this situation soon I will fear for my kids growing up in this society.

[TEEJAY]

Sadly you are right BT but the freedoms we so richly enjoy are taken advantage of by those perpetrating terror and the catch 22 is to deny them some advantage takes away some of our freedom and in sense is a victory for them - is there a balance?? Most likely not.

What is the root of most terror is it having a global society and with that come all the hate people have for one another as they have more access to each other they didn't find so readily years ago except during a war and invasion?

Could we be redneck and eradicate all who don't fit our ideal or appear a threat (Hitler ideology) or refuse them access by example UK has more terror cuz it has more people from where they originate - are we wrong to profile people - there is no easy or comfortable solution - but what will society accept?

[Capt. Zero]

If, in the name of safety, we trade off our rights, we find ourselves on the slippery slope towards totalitarianism. (There was a wonderful quote from T. Paine that put it so much better than I ever could.) I haven't a clue how OZ is reacting to the worldwide terrorism hysteria, but the direction we in the US are heading is truly frightening. Silent C, what does a terrorist look like? Anyone different than you?





"Who are you Mr. John Q. Smith?"
"Well, you"re one of us!...we think...maybe.."

[silentC]

Don't you have satire in the US?

BTW did you take your name from The Mixtures hit?

[Capt. Zero]

OOps. Sorry. I'm just a little touchy (touched?) about this subject.

[Sebastiaan56]

I haven't a clue how OZ is reacting to the worldwide terrorism hysteria, but the direction we in the US are heading is truly frightening. "

Our leader is Bush's great mate and stalwart supporter. He has also been honoured by the Republican party over there. If he wins this election and retires I reckon he'll become the ambassador to the US.

Our situation is similar to yours. We have a game going here called "tough on terror" which has basically eroded rights of association, free speech and engendered a culture of secrecy. Im not sure there is a polly who has the guts to call it out for what it is. There is a war of terror going on, its used to get re-elected.

BTW, I think I like this Obama guy, he's willing to talk to the leaders of the axis of evil! There might be hope for the west yet,

Sebastiaan

[Capt. Zero]

Don't know what BTW means. Obama seems like a nice guy, but neither he nor any 'pretender' has taken a stand on...well anything really. We don't have candidates here, we have auditions.





"Mr. President, where can I get a job?"
"Well, in the future, we don't expect to have those kind of problems, son."

[silentC]

BTW = By the way.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Sadly you are right BT but the freedoms we so richly enjoy are taken advantage of by those perpetrating terror and the catch 22 is to deny them some advantage takes away some of our freedom and in sense is a victory for them - is there a balance?? Most likely not.

I'm not sure I agree with that line. If we can't deal with a terrorist investigation using existing intelligence and investigative measures then we can't effectively carryout every other criminal investigation which clearly is not the case.

What is the root of most terror is it having a global society and with that come all the hate people have for one another as they have more access to each other they didn't find so readily years ago except during a war and invasion?

I think if anything the fact that the world getting smaller logically would lead to a better understanding and tollerance of other cultures and religious beliefs, clearly this is not the case - My opinion as to why this is the case is due to our politicians past and present that have used prejudice and mistrust as a smokescreen so that they can further their own gains.

Could we be redneck and eradicate all who don't fit our ideal or appear a threat (Hitler ideology) or refuse them access by example UK has more terror cuz it has more people from where they originate - are we wrong to profile people - there is no easy or comfortable solution - but what will society accept?

No, because by doing this you perpetuate the hatred, prejudice and mistrust that breeds terrorism.

I don't think it is luck that has seen Australia largely free from terrorist attack until now. We have until recently had a fairly tollerant society that gave everyone a fair go. No hatred or repression - No terrorism
Edit I should also add that until recently we havent taken a bully boy approach in impossing our will on other countries.

[TEEJAY]

BT I wish you were right but to a drug addict or a terrorist the compassionate sypathiser is the first target.

Being global and getting closer to each other doesn't necessarily create love and understanding but rather opportunity for my first sentence.

BTW I wish you were right.

[silentC]

SMH:

The Commonwealth Director of Public prosecutions has dropped the terror charge against Indian doctor Mohamed Haneef.

Commonwealth prosecutors withdrew the charge of supporting a terrorist organisation in Brisbane Magistrates Court this afternoon.

Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions Damian Bugg and Australian Federal Police commissioner Mick Keelty will hold a joint press conference this afternoon.

The conference has been scheduled for 3.30pm (AEST) in Canberra.

[TEEJAY]

SMH:

By all accounts they made a complete botch of this case