A ? about roof flashing

[bricks]

[quote=pawnhead;459548] It's actually better to take two out and leave the next four, and do the job in three stages:
Well you can do your jobs as dodgy as you want, and cut as many corners as you want. It doesn't worry me at all. I'm just trying to tell you how it should be done if you want it done properly.
quote]

Pawny insults are not nessecary mate.

If youve done it like that, and it works, do it. I'm not the authority on what you can and can't do.

Your more than welcome to offer your opinion, I will listen as everyone else will. Insults are'nt warranted here at all ever.

This bloke now has two options for doing it himself, Its up to him which he chooses, or he may choose a plumber.

Everytime someone posts a solution on this thread either you or Silent C have your little two cents, and your more than demeaning when you do it. You pigheadedly enforce your ideas on everyone and basically make them look like a halfwit if they dont.

Anyone who has the brains to carry out their own building works, should have enough brains to find a solution that works, loose the attitude babe.

[ausdesign]

It was only a little question guys

[pawnhead]

Pawny insults are not nessecary mate.

Well you can take it as an insult if you want, but if you do then you obviously have a problem with comprehension. You see I wasn’t criticising you at all. I was criticising your suggestion of the proper procedures for installing a flashing, and I said that it was dodgy and it was cutting corners and I stand by that assertion, just as you stand by this: -

Some people genuinly think that way,

You said that about my suggestion to use duct tape to patch up a gas service that I may cut through. Now I could take that as an insult, or I can take it the way it was intended. As good advice against the dodgy procedures that I was advocating.

You have a problem admitting when you’re wrong and you’ve come on these forums as a cheeky know it all who can teach everyone a thing or two. That’s an insult. I’m attacking you personally now. Can you see the difference? I’ll back it up by quoting you and highlighting my evidence in bold: -

Silent C,
If you click on your own link, go to the top of the page and click water supply you will come to a page that has the products they use for water supply i dont see pex pipe here, i do see iplex pro fit which is polybutelyne.

If you go to plumbing you will see Iplex future 1 pipe which is a pex gas pipe.

Future 2 is a new product and i have never ever ever seen it in a domestic situation, only comercial.

Pex pipe in australia is really only used for gas or comercial installations such as hospitals which you so kindly neglected to quote.

Jessies pipes are black, Iplex pro fit is grey,Iplex future 2 is grey, what he has is Rehau pipe, which once again is polybutelyne.

Pex wont eliminate Poly because it costs more, plumbing ( like everything) is a profit driven industry if it costs more it aint being used.

You were wrong in that post and you were being condescending towards Silent C in your tone. You still won’t admit that you were wrong though will you? And I’m sure that you’ll never admit that you are wrong in giving people advice on the proper way to install a flashing.

I worked on a job in South Sydney where I had to do exactly that. Cut out the bricks in stages because the builder installed a saw cut flashing and the internal wall below was damp. The owner wouldn't accept the builder treating the outside wall with a silicone waterproofing.

He insisted that it be done properly so that any water striking the wall above the flashing, wouldn't soak into the bricks and mortar, and travel down the wall, around the saw cut (which does not penetrate the wall), and end up dripping in his power point where his plasma TV is plugged in downstairs.

You’re advice on how to install a flashing properly could end up costing someone a lot of money and I’m just trying to tell them that it’s dodgy.

Answer me this. How are you going to stop water soaking into the wall and travelling down past the saw cut to an internal wall below?
If you can find any official documentation, backing up the method of installing saw cut flashings over internal walls then I’ll eat my words and admit that I am wrong. It won’t stop me doing it in such a way that it’s waterproof underneath though.

You pigheadedly enforce your ideas on everyone and basically make them look like a halfwit if they dont.

Now I could take being called pig headed as an insult, but I believe that you should take a look in the mirror sonny Jim. I’m not enforcing my ideas on anyone. They can do it your dodgy way if they want, and I said as much. I give people enough credit to determine for themselves the proper way to do things.
If they want to listen to a smart @rse fool then it’s up to them.

Anyone who has the brains to carry out their own building works, should have enough brains to find a solution that works, loose the attitude babe.

Good advice there. Why don’t you follow it, or is it a case of “Take my advice. I’m not using it.”

I'd still like an answer to the question I posed Mr know it all.

[bricks]

To answer your question pawny, i firmly believe that if you use the saw cut method your wall wont be water damaged, the amount of water if any that gets through is going to be comparable to the amount that may get through the joins in your method. Absolutely bugger all which will be dried up in a properly ventilated cavity. And if its done right i dont beleive any water will get through with your way or mine, i just dont think removing bricks is a good idea. Ill try to find a tech drwing for you ok.

As for the pex arguement, i never said it wasnt used for water or that it couldnt be, only that my belief was that p.b was a more likely product, pex is used for water in hospitals and comercial, in domestic housing maybe, but definately not here in adelaide due to the cost. As for the website it only re-enforces my point that Iplex pro fit p.b. is used in water supply and this new gear the K 2 can only be accesed by going to the entire product list. If this K2 pex was the generally accepted product for domestic water supply, dont you think that it would be on water supply or plumbing pages instead of Iplex profit which i believe is on both?

Seriously mate im not here to argue, i dont see the need to fill theese pages with useless banter between you and myself, if you have an alternative solution then post it, i will do same.

[journeyman Mick]

Bricks,
I think you're missing the point entirely WRT the flashing.
You have an exterior brick wall, doesn't matter if it's double brick or brick veneer.
You add an extension to the house, against the brick wall.
The external brick wall is now an internal wall below the roof line.
If the top section of this wall is above the roofline of the new roof then you need to stop moisture from travelling down the brick work.
You can do this via Pawnhead's method, which is a right way to do it.
Other ways to that will fulfill the waterproof requirement:

1)Overflash the entire above-roof section of the wall with the top of the flashing butted into the soffit and sealed with silicone or similar.

2)Batten out the wall and cover with hardiplanks or some other system which will give you a waterproof wall.

3)Paint the wall with two coats of a silasec/cement/water slurry followed by a couple of coats of a good quality paint.

Option 1 is pretty ugly but will work.
Option 2 would be out of keeping with the rest of the building and would need repainting eventually, besides being almost as much work as the stepped lead flashing.
Option 3 would be out of keeping with the rest of the building (unless you also painted all the rest of the brickwork) and would only last as long as the paint system. It would also rely (presumably) on a flashing inserted into a cut in the bricks and thus on the life of the sealant used in this cut.

A stepped lead flashing, once fitted, would last the life of the building, have no maintenance issues and be entirely in keeping with the original structure.

Mick

[journeyman Mick]

Bricks,
In my (admittedly regional) experience Pex is a generally accepted product for water supply. Possibly it's not on the website you mention because they haven't updated it. I reckon I'm a pretty good tradesman and have always tried to gain as much knowledge on products and techniques used in all facets of the building trade. I'm always prepared to learn something new though and am happy to admit that I know less than I'd like to and certainly only a fraction of the whole.

Mick

[pawnhead]

To answer your question pawny, i firmly believe that if you use the saw cut method your wall wont be water damaged,

I’m not lying to you when I relate the story of what happened to a builder that I once worked for.

It wasn’t a case of a lower floor extension as Mick has described. It was an upper floor extension.
An existing single brick internal wall was extended up through the roof, forming a new outside wall upstairs. The bricklayers could have easily installed trayed lead flashings in the wall as they built it, but the builder decided that it would be easier and cheaper (less lead) to install it in a saw cut afterwards. I installed it myself in a 20mm saw cut and siliconed it in as waterproof as anyone would be able to get it. A few weeks later after a heavy rain, the internal wall below began weeping. There were no leaks in the flashing and the water wasn't pouring in anywhere. The water was coming from the wall itself. There were visible water droplets forming on the wall. The builder offered to treat the upper wall with a clear silicone product, but the owner refused. I would have refused as well if it were me, as it would obviously break down after a while, so the next day I started chopping bricks out, two at a time.
It was an expensive exercise for the builder who was trying to save a few bucks, but it solved the problem.

So again I’ll say that if you’re comfortable with installing a saw cut flashing then go for it.

the amount of water if any that gets through is going to be comparable to the amount that may get through the joins in your method.

There should be no water at all getting past a properly installed flashing.

Seriously mate im not here to argue, i dont see the need to fill theese pages with useless banter between you and myself, if you have an alternative solution then post it, i will do same.

Neither am I, but when I see someone insisting that sub-standard building practices are A OK, then I will argue the point till I’m blue in the face. I’m simply trying to give people the right advice.
As for the slanderous remarks in my previous post, I’ll retract them, even though I consider them to be a measured response to the tone of your post.

I’m happy to shake hands and keep debating saw cut flashings, but don't expect me to allow dodgy advice to go unanswered. You can call that pig headed if you like.

[bricks]

Pawny (handshake),
Your advise is good, your method will produce a better result,

I will try it next time, ( seriously i will), when you put the mortar back into the bricks im assuming that you mud the brick on all sides and push it into the gap. Then you push mortar in to the joint to ensure its full.

serious, how do you stop mortar pushing right through to cavity ( or is it not a problem)
How do you mix your mud, do you buy premix mortar, add anything to it.

Im serious ill do it your way next time and see how it goes.

[pawnhead]

Pawny (handshake),
Your advise is good, your method will produce a better result,

I will try it next time, ( seriously i will), when you put the mortar back into the bricks im assuming that you mud the brick on all sides and push it into the gap. Then you push mortar in to the joint to ensure its full.

serious, how do you stop mortar pushing right through to cavity ( or is it not a problem)
How do you mix your mud, do you buy premix mortar, add anything to it.

Im serious ill do it your way next time and see how it goes.

It was a long time ago now and I can't quite recall what mix I made. I can remember that It was a mongrel of a job and it took ages though. I'm pretty sure that I actually did it in three stages because each tray has to overlap the next one below so the water running behind the wall spills from one tray into the next.
You wouldn't put any bycol in the mix because it would become too plastic. You'd mix it reasonably dry, bed the bottom then slide the brick in and drop it down. Jiggle it around so it settles where you want it. Using a trowel upside down with mortar on it, you'd push the mortar into the top joint with a plugging chisel or the like, taking care not to push it too far so it doesn't drop behind into the flashing tray. You'd let it go off for a bit whilst you go to the next section, then you'd come back and push some more in gently. As you get closer to filling the joint, you can press a bit harder without pushing it through. Fortunately we hadn't yet lined the inside stud wall, so it was easy to clear any mud out of the trays. If we'd lined it then the job would be more difficult. You'd have to bed the bottom with just the right amount of mud, then wait for it to go off. Then bed the top and hose it through an open perp to clear the trays. The last job would be to fill all the perps from the bottom up, and run a hose in the very top perp for a while. The water should cascade down through all the trays and emerge from a weephole at the bottom in the returning wall. It should clear any mud that's in the trays.
You'd have to allow for the time if you were quoting a job of Mick's description, but I wouldn't do it any other way apart from the other suggestions that Mick has made. A saw cut just isn't good enough unless it's just an external pergola roof or the like.
The problem might not be so bad with some modern extruded bricks because they're not nearly as porous as a dry pressed clay brick, but the cement beds will still conduct water downwards so there'd be no guarantees and I'd say so if I was quoting a job. I'd tell them that if it doesn't work, then they'd have to take up one of Mick's other suggestions at extra cost, or perhaps just line the internal wall with plastic, batten it and line it with villaboard with the back side painted. It wouldn't matter if the brickwork was damp then I don't imagine.

[bricks]

Sounds like you had problem with water getting through the wall, not through the flashing. But heres an average drawing of how i do it for you to look at.


The slot is at least 40 mm into the brick, i cut it with a grinder and then tidy it up with a pointy chisel scrapped along the groove. ( i dont know what the chisel is called).
I roll up the lead that goes inside the slot ( rolled side up), so it fills the slot ( 2-3 folds), then i firmly belt it in with a wide bolster chisel.
I brush inside the slot with a wet paint brush, then plug it with Dry-ish mortar and bag it off with a rag, or a glove.
Keep in mind i try to use one full sheet for a whole flashing so no it isnt that easy.
I've not had a call back on a job where i have followed this method.
The idea is that any water entering the join will not be able to go over the upturned lead roll and will travel back out allong the flashing.
I have had call backs due an error by me, ussually involving a tear in the flashing when dressing it in. ( now i use a wider bolster this has not re-occurred), or a join that has opened up ( due to heat mostly), i now lapp the join for 300mm and doesnt seem to happen anymore.

I've never seen water go through bricks before, have herd the only way to truly fix is with a surface sealant ( just what ive herd ,not a basis for new religion).

Cheers for the chat now i know how to fix a badly leaking wall.

[pawnhead]

Keep in mind i try to use one full sheet for a whole flashing so no it isnt that easy.

Well that's the first thing you've done wrong, because every roll of lead that I've seen has a label that says it's not to be installed in lengths over 1.5 meters.

I've never seen water go through bricks before, have herd the only way to truly fix is with a surface sealant ( just what ive herd ,not a basis for new religion).

Why do you think so many people build cavity walls and brick veneer houses if bricks are waterproof? Why do you think cavity brick ties have a drip groove in them? Why do you think veneer ties either have a drip groove, or are supposed to be installed with a fall to the outside brickwork? Why do you think that bricklayers are supposed to hose out the cavities between brick skins? Why do you think that you're not supposed to install electrical cables in a cavity?
You'd certainly save a lot of money if you could just do away with double skin construction.

As for your methods, well I wouldn't want to be anywhere near you when you install a flashing because in that drawing of yours you're cutting away the mortar past the axis of symmetry, and there's a good chance that you'd end up buried in bricks. Apart from removing most of the mortar joint, the centre of gravity of the wall above is over the slot that you've cut. On top of that you start bashing away at the joint with a bolster to get the lead in. Is the silicone that you squeeze in there supposed to hold the wall up?
Even then you're still leaving some of the mortar there aren't you? Mortar and bricks are porous so the water will still get around the flashing as I've illustrated here: -



I'd advise you to make your grinder cut all the way through the wall, then insert your flashing. If you make the cut wide enough, you won't have to use a bolster to get the flashing in.
Probably best to install some skyhooks in the upper part of the wall first though. They may stock them at Bunnings.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Well that's the first thing you've done wrong, because every roll of lead that I've seen has a label that says it's not to be installed in lengths over 1.5 meters.

I guess that depends one where you buy your lead roll... 'cos the rolls I buy have no such label on 'em. Just brown gaffer tape holding 'em together. And yes, they're from a big-name building/plumbing supply.

Why do you think that bricklayers are supposed to hose out the cavities between brick skins? Why do you think that you're not supposed to install electrical cables in a cavity?

All I can say to that is, there's an awful lot of brickies and sparkies around here who apparently don't agree with you.

I'm not saying your method is "wrong"... far from it in fact, I'd prefer my home flashed your way for obvious reasons! However, after asking around on a few sites recently, the consensus is that for an addition/extension most builders will use bricks' (and my) method. It may not trap moisture penetrating the brickwork but it meets current building code and is perfectly legal.

In a new construction they'll use your method (And, I suspect, even then only on the more expensive buildings or the closely scrutinised) but the average home-owner just isn't willing to pay for the extra labour of your method for an extension.

I'll repeat, this isn't my opinion, this is from several different builders I work with.

[journeyman Mick]

Bricks,
this is not a personal attack, but I find it hard to believe that someone who calls themselves "bricks" and who has attended a builder's licensing class doesn't understand the basic limitations of bricks. As Pawnhead has pointed out, they are not waterproof which is why there are no single skin brick residences being built today. Your method does not guarantee that lower sections of the wall will not get damp. If they do get damp and you have to go back for warranty repairs, well the you've just blown any profit not to mention giving you a bad name.

Mick

[pawnhead]

I guess that depends one where you buy your lead roll... 'cos the rolls I buy have no such label on 'em. Just brown gaffer tape holding 'em together. And yes, they're from a big-name building/plumbing supply.

Your big-name suppliers assume that you know how to install flashings, because I can distinctly remember reading it on the label of several rolls in the past, and I’ve always followed those procedures: -

LEAD Action News vol 6 no 3, 1998 ISSN 1324-6011

temperature variations can cause a 2m length of lead [flashing] to expand by more than 3mm. If this expansion and contraction cannot occur freely, lead may lift and buckle.

"Further movement will then cause bending about the buckle until, ultimately, fatigue occurs and the lead sheet cracks.
http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n3/lan6n3-15.html

I've seen many old lead flashings that are cracked, and the crack has invariably been where there is a buckle in the sheet.

All I can say to that is, there's an awful lot of brickies and sparkies around here who apparently don't agree with you.

Well I’ll relate another story to you. I’m not making this up just to support my argument. All I can do is to swear on my father’s grave that it’s true.

A job that I was working on developed a damp spot in a part of an internal brick wall at the bottom. After the builder removed the bricks where the problem had occurred, the only possible source of the dampness was determined to be the electrical cable that was installed vertically where the dampness was occurring. After the electrician had re-routed the cable in a chased slot on the inside of the wall, the problem was solved.

This is the very reason that I mentioned it in the first place. Because installing a cable in a cavity had cost a builder that I had worked for time and money. It’s a real live case against the practice. I’d advise an electrician, if he were installing his cables in a cavity, to pull them taught so that they don’t come in contact with the outside skin.

Of course I realise that it’s common practice to install cabling in a cavity and it would be very rare to get any problems with it. However there can be no disputing the fact that it is also possible that such a cable, if touching the outside skin could conduct water towards the inside of the house. It’s a simple case of physics, capillary action, and the laws of gravity.

I'm not saying your method is "wrong"... far from it in fact, I'd prefer my home flashed your way for obvious reasons! However, after asking around on a few sites recently, the consensus is that for an addition/extension most builders will use bricks' (and my) method. It may not trap moisture penetrating the brickwork but it meets current building code and is perfectly legal.

Of course. And I realize that it’s common practice, however you’d be very foolhardy if you didn’t advise your client that there is a distinct possibility that the wall underneath could become damp, and you offer no guarantees that the saw cut method of flashing will leave them with a satisfactory outcome. I’d have it written in any contract that I sign, and I'd advise the client to query any other competing quotes on their methods of installing the flashing in question. Otherwise you may find yourself facing expensive restitutions, paid for out of your own pocket.

I stand by my assertion that any practice that doesn’t guarantee a waterproof internal wall is dodgy. Of course it’s up to the client whether they are willing to go to the extra expense of ensuring a dry home.



On a related topic of installing flashings, I believe that anyone who would stand under a brick wall, and cut past the centre of gravity, is a half-wit.

It’s not only dodgy, but it’s downright dangerous.

sookyala, and sorbolene time for someone now I'd guess

[bricks]

Hi pawny, just an up date,

Ive spoken to three builders and one engineer since the weekend, none of them will let me do it your way,

The questions posed by them about the method are listed below.
( These are not my questions)

With the saw cut method the wall still retains a bond through the course above and below the flashing, with the step flashing you use, the higher and lower bricks are compleatly separated, Whats to stop the wall sliding during high winds? I pointed out that the bricks were tied in to prevent this but they will not accept that, nor the top plate of the roof construction.

Are you 100% positive that the product you have shown is a post fit product, they all seem to belive that a preformed tray would have to be installed with the bricks, similar to damp corsing.

They all belive the wall will be weaker as a result of removing and re-inserting bricks. I also pointed out that windows and air-conditioners were bricked up on a daily basis. The general reply was that the lintel origionally installed would be left in place to retain strength.

I have genuinly put your ideas forward to builders, I will continue to find out about the method, I wont use it until I know its ok.

I am not allowed to use the method until I am willing to provide a Structural Warranty for the wall and connected roof.

You can obviously post answers to the above questions, I will be posting them with my Master Builders Association and The Plumbing Industry Association here in S.A.

Ill keep you informed when I recive and answer.

Thanks for the chat,