Australian Flag

[Oz.Man]

Once again a media beat up rules the day and our lovely politicians jump on the band wagon. As namtrak points out the BDO organisers have said that they are not going to tolerate punters using the Aussie flag as an excuse to behave in a violent and racist manner. They are not banning the flag outright, they are asking people attending the BDO not to wear it because of the events that took place last year when patrons were physically assaulted if they did not kiss the flag. As a result of this some Sydney BDO patrons are travelling down to Melbourne rather than going to the BDO in their own city. If you were organising the event would you try and take steps to stop this sort of thing happening again this year?

I'll admit that the organisers of the BDO haven't explained things very well and next time they could certainly have some more PR smarts but don't get sucked in by the reptiles of the Australian media and the politicians with their ridiculous beat ups.

[Studley 2436]

Personnaly , I don't like to see people wearing the Australian flag as a cape draped over their shoulders . It seems disrespectful somehow although I'm sure they don't mean it to be .
Rick

It is in fact illegal to robe yourself in the flag. Pauline was breaking the law with that campaign photo those years ago when it was draped around her shoulders. I think the philosophy behind that is that by clothing yourself with the flag you are making yourself it's equal.

That is different to having a flag print on your hat or a T shirt that is printed to appear like a flag. The thing being that it is not a flag but a resemblance of the flag (we have lawyers here who will know the legal niceties of all this).

The flag represents the nation and it's people. So a print that is like the flag but is a piece of clothing does not have that authority because it is not a flag.

Anyway the whole thing that is wrong with the Big Day Out mob saying no Australian flags as they incite violence is that they singled out the Aussie Flag. If they had of said no flags likely there would have been nothing to notice that much, although I think the history of that event was it happened on Australia Day and so there were lots of flags on clothes and so on.

Studley

[Felder]

It is in fact illegal to robe yourself in the flag. Pauline was breaking the law with that campaign photo those years ago when it was draped around her shoulders.

So can we throw her back in the slammer?

[Studley 2436]

HAHA

My former Wedding Album supplier sells a Meranti Veneer cover on one his albums as Cedar!

It is shocking soft stuff that is only used because it is the cheapest thing he can find.

This is a very clear breach of the Trade Practises Act but he has been doing it for 15 years he claims without a complaint. GAWD I complained as soon as I saw the marks and bruises that just appeared by magic in that soft soft cover. Don't have time of money to sue him but you get my point

Studley

[Bleedin Thumb]

If Pauline Hanson was an ugly bloke they'd treat her like the crazy Sydney Mullah.

She is and they do.

[Studley 2436]

now you guys have me interested in the flags that our Troops marched under.

I know it was the Union Flag for the (pre federation) Boer War. Wars since I am not so sure. It might be a matter of the force they were with. For example in Afghanistan some of our SAS were with the Yanks to coordinate communication and avoid fratricide (friendly fire the Yanks call it) so those two would have been serving under the US flag in a sense because I am sure that they were there in their minds for Australia and their mates and so on.

Gunna do a google

Studley

[Studley 2436]

OK here is the War Memorials statement

They say that Australians fought under the Blue Ensign and Red Ensign in WW1 and 2 as well as the Union Flag.

All three flags were used in recruiting posters though the Union Flag less so in WW2.

So no single answer for this one, like many things in history.

Studley

[Sturdee]

Until 1953 the Red ensign was the official flag flown at all Commonwealth places and was changed because Menzies didn't like the red colour as it was too much like the communist countries red flags. He had a phobia of Red's under our beds.


However we haven't fought any war under the official ( blue) flag as we have never had a declared war since WW2.


Peter.

[Studley 2436]

I suppose it is true that Korea The Malaysian Incursion (top work by the SAS there) and Vietnam were not declared wars in the traditional sense, just as the war on terror is an undeclared war in the sense there is no embassy to send papers to.

I'd hope that no one thinks this makes those wars incursions crises etc any less real than the World Wars. Is it just a European reading of history that doesn't place as much cred on wars that didn't happen there?

Studley

[Sturdee]

I'd hope that no one thinks this makes those wars incursions crises etc any less real than the World Wars.
Studley

The fighting was real enough and our soldiers deserved and still deserve our greatest respect and gratitude for what they have done.

I raised the issue as I have a problem with calling these military actions a war when they are not. In fact if the US and our government had the guts to declare war at the time of Vietnam and not hampered the military we would have had a better outcome. I also have issues with the war on terror but that is not a flag issue.


Peter.

[Studley 2436]

Well fair enough Sturdee. Politicians lost Vietnam. Remember the Tet Offensive. Politicians thought war is about metres of dirt when the military on the spot was rapt that they now knew who everyone was and who they were fighting. They had identified their enemy and were in a position to do something about winning the war but the politicians took flight and fled.

I think and this is something the Aussie Army is good at is the hearts and minds stuff. The Yanks don't have much idea. Remember when the major invasion of Iraq was complete and they wanted to bring in their heavy machinery and clear up the mess the locals were spitting. What if they said who can help get this sorted, given them shovels barrows and gloves and given the guys doing the job access to supplies? What about having doctors with the units on patrol to help with sick kids injured and wounded husbands etc? Instead they just disarm the Iraq army and create a mass of people disenfrachised and upset with the liberating/invading force.

Better stop there or we will get the topic deleted

Studley

[Groggy]

The troops in the field do not really give a toss whether anything is 'declared' - unless it has to do with the cricket. On a two-way firing range they only care about their rules of engagement; anything else is for someone else to worry about.

Since Vietnam, Aussie troops have been deployed in Ismalia (Suez), the Sinai, Sudan, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Iraq, Solomons, Timor-Leste, Israel-Lebanon, Namibia and a few other select holiday spots. All of these under the Australian flag.

Out of interest though, the primary motivator in battle is not flags or ideals, it is friendship. This is generally why a close knit team often outperforms larger forces, their training and reliance on each other builds trust, inter-dependance and motivation. This was the primary factor in the collapse of the Iraqi forces and their mass surrenders. It was also a significant factor for the Viet Cong in the Vietnam war.

[Sturdee]

Better stop there or we will get the topic deleted

Studley

Agreed, in fact I agree with all you said.

Out of interest though, the primary motivator in battle is not flags or ideals, it is friendship.

Then why does the RSL always trot this out when there is a discussion on the flag and what our flag should look like.

They always try to stifle rational debate with that incorrect claim even though the Union Jack in the corner is objectionable to a lot of Aboriginal Australians and means nothing to the majority of immigrants.

A distinctive Australian flag would be better (similar to changing our national anthem was) taking into account the needs and ideals of all Australians and not the small minority that came from England.


Peter.

[Studley 2436]

Talking about the flag I am happy to change it but I don't like all the new age mumbo jumbo that goes along the debate.

I do think there are some good points about the current flag, it has the Union Flag showing our history, the Fedaration Star showing who we are, The Southern Cross showing where we are. Keep the Southern Cross and the Fedaration Star I say but find something else for the Union Flag. Very importantly I want nothing that suggest any sort of Aboriginal Rights or anything else. That stuff has done so much to damage Aborigines it is not funny. Doing so likewise be to suggest there are two types of Australian and that goes counter to everything great about this country.

The big reason I think it is a good idea to look for a new flag is because I would like one that is clearly our flag and can't be mixed up with various others around the place.

It has been done successfully in the past. South Africa and Canada have two of the most distinctive and good looking flags there are. No reason why we can't do the same.

Studley

[Shedhand]

I refuse to fly the flag in case someone calls me a Kiwi...

Out of interest though, the primary motivator in battle is not flags or ideals, it is friendship.

Not any more mate. Its all about commerce - secure the oil. As Tom Waits sings in 'Road to Peace' - "the US got no friends, only interests"