World War 3

[Flowboy]

Could that mean that "he who has the most handtools when he dies wins?"

To steal and modify from someone else.

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P is for Pine is for Practice

[Andy Mac]

The situation (re)developing in the Middle East is a worry, esp. with the Sheriff currently preoccupied by Iraq, Iran, Nth Korea et al. From what I've read the US will always feel obligated/pressured into helping Israel.
The real importance that the Middle East pocesses is simply the oil deposits...which makes it blatantly obvious to me, the way to avoid being involved in said conflict is to reduce reliance on oil. Full stop. Develop transport networks independant of oil. Develop alternative power sources. Of course then the snouts-in-troughs (ie. Canberra) will need to find another source of parasitic income, to ensure unencumbered payrises whenever they want!
Australia is in real danger of getting tangled up in the US's coat tails, but our own Deputy seems adamant they're our own best friends. Maybe he can see the writing on the wall, and wants G Dubya alongside...powerful allies etc.
To us on this isolated continent, we need to ensure radical Islam isn't stirred to fever pitch by carry-on in the Middle East, because our borders are close to a bulk of them. And Johnny seems at least alert (if not alarmed) to that threat, but not enough to step away from a conflict that isn't ours.
My personal view is to bring our troops home from wherever and give the nation some sense of home security, after all we are basically unable to defend ourselves (ummm, who guaranteed that?!) ...or is that head-in-the-sand thinking?

Regards,

[Clinton1]

The danger in the Middle East is the total hate of the state of Israel by those Arab nations surrounding it.

The danger in the Middle East is the total hate, by the Israeli's, of the states surrounding Israel.

... and it will go on, and on, and on.

I find it quite interesting that the Jewish people can have such a terrible wrong committed against them, and then can go can committ such a terrible wrong on others.
Interesting and very sad.

It seems that there is a complete lack of an ability to act in a decent and civilised manner on both sides. Coupled with an inability to see that they (both sides) are continuing to sow the seeds of future hatred by the acts each side commits daily, it leaves so little hope for ever resolving the conflict.

[Auld Bassoon]

I take Peter's points and broadly agree with them.

However, I grossly object to the Israeli's use of excessive force against the West Bank and now Lebanon. They are out of control, and will, IMO, cause untold social, political and economic damage if allowd to continue.

I could go on extensively, but this isn't the forum for any kind of political soapbox, so I'll shut up now.

[Sturdee]

However, I grossly object to the Israeli's use of excessive force against the West Bank and now Lebanon. They are out of control, and will, IMO, cause untold social, political and economic damage if allowd to continue.

I do too. :mad: It's like taking a sledgehammer to crack a pistachio nut.

I believe that a country has every right to defend itself and in so doing use every weapon available to it, uncluding nuclear, but what is happening now is totally unacceptable.

It is no longer defence but unacceptable agression and our little Johnie is excusing this.:mad:

Peter.

[Ashore]

I do too. :mad: It's like taking a sledgehammer to crack a pistachio nut.

I believe that a country has every right to defend itself and in so doing use every weapon available to it, uncluding nuclear, but what is happening now is totally unacceptable.

It is no longer defence but unacceptable agression and our little Johnie is excusing this.:mad:

Peter.

Peter if NZ started lobbing rockets into Australia and some of my family were killed what should the Australian Government do ,
Personally I'de want them to blow them off the map



But the middle east is diffrent it has too many players with too many agendas
How complex could it be
Israeli wants and needs cheap labour
The Palistinies were never driven from their homeland a lot left but were never expelled
All citizens in Israeli arab and jews vote in their elections with an equal vote
This last peace and agreement was not broken by Israeli
Syria want to take over lebanon
The Lebanoneese want to take over Marrickville
Israeli want nice peacefull workers to do the mundane things and pay a pittance
Iran is spoiling for a reason and want nuclear arms
The Arab states will never recognise Israel
The yanks can't afford to not support them the Jewish lobby decide the outcome of the US elections
And Australia have had peace keepers & observers in Israel and Palastine since the 1960's
The Israeli's were proberly the first to use suicide bombers ( against the british ) for political reasons to gain their Freedom
The Israeli's hold in excess of 10,000 prisoners including women and children , some being held without trial and the opporsition want them free and are using any means they can to get them free as you would
Etc Etc

[Sturdee]

Peter if NZ started lobbing rockets into Australia and some of my family were killed what should the Australian Government do ,
Personally I'de want them to blow them off the map

That comparison is not quite correct. It should be if some New Zealanders became terrorists and lobbed rockects to us not the country itself.

By all means invade Lebanon and get the terrorists , but to bomb that country back to the stone age again is unacceptable.

It is indeed a very complex issue and will never be resolved. The emnity between the Jews and Arabs , both racially and religiously, have been there for centuries and will always be there.

I personally believe in the right of existance of the state of Israel and believe that the wealthy Arab nations should have resettled the palestinians decades ago instead of financing their continued terrorism against Israel.

But what is currently happening is wrong and our government should speak out against it instead of being the US lackey again.:mad:

Peter.

[Clinton1]

Another interesting thing is that @10 years ago there was almost total opposition to the Palestinians and total support of the Isreali's.

That has certainly changed.

[Ashore]

That comparison is not quite correct. It should be if some New Zealanders became terrorists and lobbed rockects to us not the country itself.

Fair call , Though the terrorists in this case are part of the Government of Lebanon and that Government did nothing about their actions.
But I feel you are correct in saying Israel's reaction has gone too far, still I say this sitting at home in Australia and and making a judgement based on the news coverage shown here .

Russell

[Dan_574]

Israel though this time have gone in to look and for and retrieve one lowly corporal who was captured. Hmm was this just a convenient excuse. I think so.

[Chris Parks]

The Palistinies were never driven from their homeland a lot left but were never expelled

Didn't the European Jews move in after the 2nd world war and displace the Palestinians? I have not studied it, but that was my hazy recollection.

[martrix]

Q. WHAT IS THE CURRENT HISTORY OF PALESTINIAN?

A. In the end of 19 century and early Th century, Palestine (as will as all the adjusting Arab countries) was rules by Turkish (Muslims) in one Islamic empire, the capital was in Istanbul. In the first World War, Arabs were looking to get there independents from Turkish empire to establish there own countries in emirates like Syria, Palestine, Saudi, Iraq, Egypt etc. Therefore they agreed to collaborated with Britain in the W.W.I against promises to help Arab emirates to get there independents after the war from the Islamic Turkish empire. What happens after the war that Britain and France toke control of all Arab countries under what know as Mandate system. Britain toke the mandate on Palestine. In 1917 Jams Aurther Balfour (The Great Britain minister) gave a written promise to the Jews around the world to help them to establish there own home land in Palestine by supporting and facilitating there immigration to Palestine. Immigration started before that date after Zionist movement held their conference in 1897 and set their goal of establishing the Jews homeland on Palestine. Jews started to come to Palestine in mass number with a great help and facility from Britain mandate power which allow them to buy governmental lands and to confiscate a huge Palestinian owned lands to be given to Jews to build there camps and farms. Britain also started to arm the Jews and allowing them to organize themselves, some Zionist armed groups established and worked as the core of the future Israel army like Hagana and others.

In 1936 Palestinians started to protest the mandate authority policy and they're beside with Jews. They struggles to push Britain to give them their rights and to stop lands transfer to Jews, to stop the Jews legal and illegal immigration and to stop them from killing the Arabs.

In 1947 the Jews groups like Hagana start the war against Arab in order to occupy as much as possible from Arab lands, they were attacking Arab villages and home causing more then 400 massacre killing thousands of Arab Palestinians. All that to force Arab to leave their lands and to immigrate to other countries. In the other hand Arab was trying to defend their families by facing the Jewish groups and attacking them.

In 1947 Britain toke the issue of Palestine to the UN to decide about it, there UN issued resolution number 181 about the Partition of Palestine to an Arab country and Jews country with Jerusalem and an International zone. Arab rejected this proposal since it was giving the Jews more land then Arab (Arab were number of times more the Jews).

In 1948 Britain decided to leave Palestine and to end the mandate, on the same day, Jews declare there independent state and Arab launch a full-scale war against the new created Jews state. Israel won the war and toke control of 78% of the land of Palestine (all except Gaza Strip and West Bank include east Jerusalem). West Bank was under Jordan administration, Gaza Strip was under Egypt Administration.

Because of the massacres and the war, huge number of Palestinians in the lands occupied by the Jewish lifts their homes and become refugees in other Arab countries like Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

In 1967 Israel launch another full-scale war "the six days war" against Arab countries. Israel won the war and occupied Gaza Strip, West Bank, East Jerusalem, Part of Jordan, Part of Syria and Part of Egypt. UN issued a resolution number 242 considering the Israeli occupation illegal and calling Israel to leave the Arab land occupied in 1967 war. Israel rejected all UN resolution related to the Palestine issue.

By the full meaning of the word, West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza Strip are occupied territories as per the International Laws and the UN resolutions, even USA approved the 242 resolutions, which consider all the land occupied in 1967 by Israeli as an occupied territories and NOT a part of Israel.

Palestinians demands now that Israel should comply to the UN resolution number 242 and leave the Palestine lands occupied in 1967 to allow the Palestine to established there own home land in that lands, as will as solving the related issues such as Palestinian Refugees and Jews settlements in West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the early sixties, PLO established with number of Palestinian fighting groups like Fatah, democratic front and others and start to legitimate freedom straggle against Israel across the boarders and from inside to free the lands and return there rights of having there own state.

In 1973, Egypt and Syria launch a war against Israeli and they manage to free some lands of Sinai and the war ended by number of UN agreement.

In 1988 Palestinian started to look for a peaceful solution to the conflict based on the International law and UN resolution no 242 and others. In a major compromise, they accepted the existent of Israel on the Palestinian land occupied in 1948, in return they asked Israel to give back the lands occupied in 1967 (West Bank including east Jerusalem and Gaza Strip) to establish the Palestinian state and to live in peace with Israel. All other Arab countries supported the Palestinian in this approach and they also accepted Israel and even started some peace talks with it.

After the peace agreement in 13 Sep 1993, Israel allowed a limited self rule to the Palestinians in Parts of Gaza Strip and the parts of West Bank, and the current negotiation is to complete the hand over of all West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinian authority including the east Jerusalem based on UN 242 resolution also to solve other issues such as the 3.7 Millions Palestinian refugees, Jewish settlements and other issues.

Number of other agreement reached though peace talk and Israel withdraw from some land, which is now role by the PNA (Palestinian National authority).

There are historical rights to the Palestinian nation of the land of Palestine, they have the right like any other nation of having there own state which will take care of there benefits, they have the right of freedom and to decide for themselves.

[Eddie Jones]

[quote=Ashore]Peter if NZ started lobbing rockets into Australia and some of my family were killed what should the Australian Government do ,
Personally I'de want them to blow them off the map[quote]

Come off it! Half the people who died would be their own citizens! Electoral suicide!

[DanP]

So what you're saying, Martrix, is that the Israelites were ar5eholes in 1947 as much as they are now.

[Ashore]

Jews started to come to Palestine in mass number with a great help and facility from Britain mandate

Britain also started to arm the Jews

In 1948 Britain decided to leave Palestine and to end the mandate,

In 1967 Israel launch another full-scale war "the six days war" against Arab countries.

All other Arab countries supported the Palestinian in this approach and they also accepted Israel and even started some peace talks with it.

You certainly don't let the truth get in the way of a good story