Newby dovetail saw

[IanW]

Planemaker's starting out with 20 tpi was very couragous, I thought. Up til now I have been limited to 18 tpi because the 4" DEST files I had were just not sharp-cornered enough to cut teeth any finer (and I was a bit nervous about tackling finer teeth, anyway). However, on Friday, I finally found time to go & check out the Jewellers' supply place Lightwood alerted me to, and came home with some Grobert needle files. There are 4 different 'cuts' & I wanted to look at them to decide which were the most useful for saws. As it turns out, the differences between each grade are quite small - easy to tell a #1 from a #4, but hard to pick two adjacent grades. So I bought one each of 2,3 & 4.

Tonight I had a chance to try a couple out, after whipping up some handles. Armed with Ray's templates, I went at a small saw blank with the #2. Wow! does this thing cut metal! It was sinking these small teeth so fast it was hard to control, so switched to the finest one. Even it cuts faster than the files I've been using (& sweetly, to boot - requires almost no pressure at all to make it bite). So in no time at all, I had me a pretty reasonable set of fangs. The picture is not good, & my Photoshopping hasn't improved it any - the teeth are actually much better than they look in the pic.

The saw will take a week or more to finish, and will be sharpened crosscut after a light set, so I'll post pics when I get it done, but I was so impressed with these files I had to tell someone about them. From now on, I'll be using them exclusively for all my saws with 15 tpi or finer. Thanks Peter!

Cheers,

[kevjed]

You must of missed the meds today Ian. So much for not making any more saws for a while. As I've said in another thread...."it's a bug"
All the best
Kevin

[planemaker]

Planemaker's starting out with 20 tpi was very couragous, I thought. Up til now I have been limited to 18 tpi because the 4" DEST files I had were just not sharp-cornered enough to cut teeth any finer (and I was a bit nervous about tackling finer teeth, anyway). However, on Friday, I finally found time to go & check out the Jewellers' supply place Lightwood alerted me to, and came home with some Grobert needle files. There are 4 different 'cuts' & I wanted to look at them to decide which were the most useful for saws. As it turns out, the differences between each grade are quite small - easy to tell a #1 from a #4, but hard to pick two adjacent grades. So I bought one each of 2,3 & 4.

Tonight I had a chance to try a couple out, after whipping up some handles. Armed with Ray's templates, I went at a small saw blank with the #2. Wow! does this thing cut metal! It was sinking these small teeth so fast it was hard to control, so switched to the finest one. Even it cuts faster than the files I've been using (& sweetly, to boot - requires almost no pressure at all to make it bite). So in no time at all, I had me a pretty reasonable set of fangs. The picture is not good, & my Photoshopping hasn't improved it any - the teeth are actually much better than they look in the pic.

The saw will take a week or more to finish, and will be sharpened crosscut after a light set, so I'll post pics when I get it done, but I was so impressed with these files I had to tell someone about them. From now on, I'll be using them exclusively for all my saws with 15 tpi or finer. Thanks Peter!

Cheers,

Hi Ian. They sound like the same type of file I purchased through the bay a few months ago. Swedish seller ; only had 5 left in stock; took the lot. They were Grobet 00 (extra fine) 2 inch cutting length.

The proper name for these is Escapement Files.The beauty of these as you have now found out is the sharpness of the V which is critical for cutting high tpi saw teeth.

I went through 2 files for the dovetail saw. The next level courser would be a more cost effective choice.

Have attached a link to 3 sided escapement files for you to view.

Be interested to find out if the files you have are the same.

Stewie.

——— Escapement File ——— 3-Square Slim and Short#::#Grobet Escapement Files#::#Grobet Files & Rifflers#::#ARTCO - American Rotary Tools Company

[IanW]

.......
Be interested to find out if the files you have are the same.

Hi Stewie,
Yes, essentially the same.

http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/...Files_2010.pdf (scroll down to the "threesquare needle files")

The ones I bought are coarser than the 00s, and nearly half the price, too. They come in such a range of cuts, I couldn't decide from the catalogue which ones were the most useful. Peter (Lightwood) suggested getting a coarse cut for tooth-forming, and a fine for sharpening. But I how coarse & how fine? I thought if I looked at them, I would be able to tell which ones were suitable. Well, that only helped marginally, because each successive cut is only a teeny bit finer than the last. Anyways, having tried 2,3 & 4, I think I will henceforth settle on 3s & 4s for sawmaking and sharpening the small saws. They all cut like fury, and have a nice, smooth action.

I used to buy Nicholson 4" double-extra-slim taper files which were ok for saws up to 18 tpi, but they are now hard to find around these parts, and like everything ese, they are being made in locations other than the US, and they are definitely not the same quality as in years past. Not only are they less sharp on the corners, they don't seem to last the way they used to. Judging by the way these Grobert files are performing, I think they will give me 4 times the lifespan. The best news is that I can now form 'proper' small teeth again....

You must of missed the meds today Ian. So much for not making any more saws for a while. As I've said in another thread...."it's a bug"

Yeah, I know. But in my defense, I have wanted to make a small saw with very fine teeth for a long time. I've also got one last small bit of the chunk of Rock Oak BobL gave me, just big enough for a small saw handle. It's such nice stuff, it deserves a better fate than just floating about in the big plastic tub of "interesting bits" under the house.


But now I can cut fine teeth again, I wonder what my limit is? I have a bunch of very fine drawers & boxes to make for a very elaborate jewellry box ordered by middle daughter some time ago. I could do with a decent little saw of around 24 tpi to tackle these.

No no, I promise I will be good & take the tablets........


Avagooday,

[Heavansabove]

A little bit of clarification on needle file specifications:

The range of fineness is: 0000 (most coarse) to 8 (super super super fine)

All Swiss triangular files are 3-Square, ie double cut compared to single cut saw taper files - and therefore cut more aggressively, and rougher, than (equivalent spec'ed) saw taper files. Note that 3-Square files are also available in American Pattern (6" - 10" and Bastard, 2nd Cut, Smooth), corners probably not as sharp as Swiss Pattern; I know one filer who has a large stock of NOS 10" 3-Square files that he uses on all hand saws - with he claims good results, I have not used one of his saws.

The approx range of Swiss Pattern 3-Square files available in Australia - length is cutting length, not overall length:

Files
length - max diameter (American Pattern width ~ Regular Saw Taper width)
4" - 7.1mm
6" - 9.5mm (1/2")
8" - 12.7mm (19/32")

These files are available in cuts from 00 - 6, at least overseas. In Australia a limited range wholesaled by

Slim files - max diameter - Cuts
6" - 7.9mm - 00/0/2

Some width comparisons for saw taper files:

Length Regular Slim Extra Slim Double-Extra Slim
3" 7/32" 5/32" - -

4" 11/32" 7/32" 3/16" 5/32"

6" 15/32" 11/32" 9/32" 7/32"

8" 19/32" 15/32" 13/32" 5/16"

Cannot find Grobert diameter/width listed for most of the following, but obviously a lot less than the above files - I have indicated vintage Nicholson width where listed)

Die Sinkers - Width - Cuts
(3.5" overall) - 7/32" - 0/2 7/32"

The files above have the normal file tang, requiring a handle; those following have a built-in "handle", but are also often used with a handle.

Needle [round handle] - Cuts
1 3/4" (4"overall) - 0/2
2 1/2" (5.5") - 0/2/4
3" (6.25") - 00/0/2/4/6/8
4 1/8" (7.75") - 0/2/4/6

Escapement [square handle](thinner - significantly so if illustrations are to scale - than needle files, and for a specific cut more tpi, really too thin for this application - and too $$, around 2 x the cost of needle files)
2", accurately 55mm (5 1/2" overall) - 0/2/4/6/8

Escapement slim and short
40mm (5 1/2" overall) - 2/4/6
-------

Compared to American Pattern:
0 ~ Bastard, 2 ~ Smooth, so as saw taper files are 2nd Cut, approx ~ 1.

So Planemaker - suggest moving to needle files; also you will not find anything coarser than 00 in escapement (or other) files. Escapement files are designed for high precision work, not I really the case with saw filing. I suspect Ian's files are not the same as yours - you can check the cutting length from data above.

3-Square files are a problem for larger ppi saws because the gullet is too sharp and teeth more likely to break.

Cheers
Peter

ps apologies for layout, cannot get tables to work, and extra spaces are stripped.

[IanW]

A little bit of clarification on needle file specifications:

The range of fineness is: 0000 (most coarse) to 8 (super super super fine)

All Swiss triangular files are 3-Square, ie double cut compared to single cut saw taper files - and therefore cut more aggressively, and rougher, than (equivalent spec'ed) saw taper files. Note that 3-Square files are also available in American Pattern (6" - 10" and Bastard, 2nd Cut, Smooth), corners probably not as sharp as Swiss Pattern; I know one filer who has a large stock of NOS 10" 3-Square files that he uses on all hand saws - with he claims good results, I have not used one of his saws.
........

Peter - Some interesting info there - ta.

However, I always assumed the "3-square" refers to the cross-section of the files - i.e. an equilateral triangle as opposed to other patterns where the profile is an isoceles triangle with one angle more acute (barrette) or less acute (knife) than 60*.

I had a brain-fade & called my files "Grobert" when in fact they are "Vallorbe" - sorry about that. And I forgot to mention these files are all double-cut. While in general, one would expect them to leave a rougher surface than the single-cut American pattern files, they don't. They are cutting much more smoothly than the Nicholsons I had been using. This is probably because the actual teeth are as fine or finer than the Nicholsons. For comparison, see the pics.

The first pic is a #2 compared with a Sandvik and Nicholson 4" DEST files. The teeth of the Vallorbe are the same as the Sandvik and finer than the Nicholson. (Yes I know, both the Sandvik & Nicholson are well & truly haddit!).

Second pic is a #3, which is finer than both of the American pattern files.

I didn't show the #4, which of course is finer still. Cuts faster than the single-cuts, but still leaves a very clean surface.

And pic 3 compares the corners! The Sandvik is the better of the 2 American patterns, & acceptable for up to 18 tpi, but the Nicholson is a very rounded thing. (They didn't uster be like that - I finished a box of "made in USA" DESTs about 18 months ago that were much better).

As to side thickness - well, you can see in the pics they are pretty close. The Vallorbe is a tad wider than the Sandvik (3.8mm vs. 3.6mm, with the Nicholson at 5.1mm. I have been getting Grobert 4" DEST (supposedly) files, which are a little wider still than the Nicholsons, with corners about the same.

So as I said, given the experience of the surfaces these Vallorbe files leave, and their speed of cut, I will be using 3s & 4s for making & sharpening of small-toothed saws from now on....

Cheers,

[RayG]

Hi Peter, Thanks for the info on 3 square files, I always wondered what the difference between the various patterns was. I did look up escapement files, and they seem to come in a variety of profiles, but mostly with square section on the tang? Any idea's as to the purpose of the square section handle?

Anyway, the ones I use are the same Ian, vallorbe, swiss pattern needle files, I notice the ebay store "Swiss Tools" doesn't have any listed at the moment. I think they were about $3 or $4 each.

I know you can get "diamond" needle files, I wonder how they would go?

Regards
Ray

[IanW]

........I know you can get "diamond" needle files, I wonder how they would go?

Ray - I tried them, but they are terribly slow cutting & the coarsest ones, which cut a bit faster, don't leave a very good surface for saw-teeth. So I used the better (and more expensive!) one of the two I tried to mark out from a template. It worked well, at first, because it has very sharp corners, and less tendency to skate than steel files. However, that puts a lot of pressure on the few particles actually meeting metal, so it has shed a few, and is not working as well after a half a dozen or so saws.

But these Vallorbes are just as good, if not better, for marking out, so that's no problem. Mine cost about $7 apiece at the local AJS store. I suppose it's well worth buying online if you can get them for half that, & now I know exactly what I want.

Hmm, wonder what the possibility of a wholesale buy from the manufacturer would be - if we could get agreement on 2 or 3 of the multitude of cuts? A bulk-buy & redistribution would make sense. I will look into it, now that I'm joining the ranks of the "R" folks...

Cheers,

[Heavansabove]

Hi Ian
Have a look at Knowledge base on files, engraver's gravers and saws. and download the history PDF - Vallorbe is the conglomerate owning a number of file companies, still using old trade names such as Grobert and Glardon & Co (I have a few thus marked). I wonder if Grobert USA (who owns that?) may be sourcing files outside the traditional Swiss makers; see About Us - and that may be the source of lower grade files.

On files the AP are ~ cut 1, but because not as well made, are not as fine as the Swiss.

Ray,
I suspect the square handles are to make it easier to identify them on the bench - but don't know.

I purchased some files and rifflers from Swiss Tools some time ago, but I notice that price has both shot up when I looked recently, eg TRIANGULAR, THREE SQUARE FILE, extra slim - 6 3/4" long with tang - 1/4 " wide - No 3 Cut for 16 pounds stg. This is too rich for me!

My eyes are probably past anything over 14ppi, but I might give it a go with the needle files I have.

Cheers
Peter

[IanW]

Thanks Peter - I had a quick look at the site, but it's slow & keeps chucking me out, so I'll try again later.

I think you are right - with everyone looking at nothing but price, it's a race to the bottom everywhere.

Yeah - it's not good when the eyes won't do what you want them to. I'm finding my headband magnifier more & more valuable these last couple of years. Plus good light! All the dull weather we've been having makes me realise it's time to put two sets of daylight tubes over the bench, instead of just one.....


Cheers,

[planemaker]

Hi Peter. Excellent detail. Who would be the best supplier for the needle files. I would be looking at purchasing a dozen if that was a cheaper option.

Stewie.

[planemaker]

Hi Peter, Thanks for the info on 3 square files, I always wondered what the difference between the various patterns was. I did look up escapement files, and they seem to come in a variety of profiles, but mostly with square section on the tang? Any idea's as to the purpose of the square section handle?

Anyway, the ones I use are the same Ian, vallorbe, swiss pattern needle files, I notice the ebay store "Swiss Tools" doesn't have any listed at the moment. I think they were about $3 or $4 each.

I know you can get "diamond" needle files, I wonder how they would go?

Regards
Ray

Ray. I purchased the last of his stock about 2 months ago.He only had 5. I might contact him via the bay and see if he can source some more.

Stewie.

[planemaker]

Been busy making up a new handle for the dovetail saw. Will take Peter's (Lightwood) advice and put a clear finish on this one. The handle shape is my own design.. A closed handle this time. Next stage is fitting the blade and hardback.



Heres a couple of the hand tools I used for shaping the handle. A Gramercy saw handle rasp, and a spokeshave blade fitted with a couple of collet type handles.




Heres a close up of the spokeshave I used. Fantastic for getting in those tight area's of the saw handle while shaping. Highly recommended tool for you saw makers.The handles were purchased on the bay and are designed to fit standard size needle files. No tailed tools were used to make this handle.



Stewie.

[Heavansabove]

Stewie, any jewelers' supplier should be able to supply, Peter McBride knows the Melbourne suppliers; I suggest you contact him for details. I purchased some from the House of Jewelery in Sydney - I think all such suppliers have large stocks.

Cheers
Peter

[planemaker]

Stewie, any jewelers' supplier should be able to supply, Peter McBride knows the Melbourne suppliers; I suggest you contact him for details. I purchased some from the House of Jewelery in Sydney - I think all such suppliers have large stocks.

Cheers
Peter

Thanks for the info Peter.

Stewie.