Gas hot water heaters

[Bob Willson]

Well thanks for all the replies and the links.

jackie: I did think of electrically boosted solar hot water, but I wanted to try to escape from electricity. I firmly believe that we are going to see a whole bunch of power failures here in sunny Queensland in the coming months as our underpowered power system struggles to cope with the demands put on it.

Peter: It is the cheaper tariff, it just fails to cut out. I think there is something wrong with it. The heat pump would be great as well but I am trying to get away from storage type heaters due to a lack of room

Morry: That is the Bosch system. I would like to have a look at that.

vsquizatter operated would be fine but the turbo is even better. I want a 21 litre system and that is about $900. I do like the stainless ball valves and there is already one in line. It does have a brass body though.???

Grunt: I used to subscribe to Choice but stopped when I disagreed with a couple of their summations. It is, however, an excellent publication.

station-rat: I like taking chances.

maglite and namtrak: Thanks, that is the kind of savings that I was hoping for.

[barnsey]

Bob,

Living up here I'm surprised to hear you even considering a hot water system without solar. I moved into a rented house some time ago and enjoyed 6 weeks of never ending hot water till one rainy sunday afternoon when the 16 year old daughter grumpily complained of her shower going cold :eek: Well what would you expect after a 30 minute shower!!

Went out to the hot water heater - stainless steel tank! - but cold. Went to the meter box and found that the master switch for the hot water was off. :confused:

The solar system had provided all the hot water we needed till then. Me thinks solar is the way to go - it'll give you hot water most of the time and whether you use gas or electric as back up is a decision that frankly matters little in terms cost. Installation is your greatest cost so go with the cheapest.

[ivanavitch]

Bob
We recently installed a Bosch 10H. This has the inbuilt turbine so no power or pilot light required. We got it from a gas bloke in Ipswich and his install price was very reasonable. I think all up it was around 600 installed.

John Scott

[Bob Willson]

That sounds really good John, I don't suppose that you can remember his name?

I am still researching the solar alternative Barnsey but the initial install cost is very high and usually takes at least 10 or more years to recoup.

[Daddles]

I'd second the vote for solar, especially in Qld. We had one in our holiday house and basically didn't need the electric boost for most of the year - and that's living in South Aust.

Instant gas - well, I've had two (both Bosch) and probably won't again unless I've got very good water pressure. The last place had acceptable water pressure and the result was a nightmare. The instant systems drop the pressure at the tap and in this case, made using the thing marginal. In summer, and I never quite worked out why, showers would go hot and cold at will - yes, we had the experts out a few times to fix, tinker and modify the bloody thing. We had no choice about washing clothes in tepid water because it'd take too long to fill the washing machine with hot and enough cold to make the water warm would cut off the hot water. Then there's the water use issue. You can't use a water saving shower head with an instant system - if you drop the water flow the heat cuts out. And they do burn a hell of a lot ... like everytime you turn the hot water on (even to wash your hands). If you're on bottled gas you are going to go through a lot of it.

I'm not saying you've made the wrong choice, just suggesting that you make sure you've looked at it thoroughly.

Richard

[vsquizz]

The instant systems drop the pressure at the tap and in this case, made using the thing marginal. In summer, and I never quite worked out why, showers would go hot and cold at will - yes, we had the experts out a few times to fix, tinker and modify the bloody thing. We had no choice about washing clothes in tepid water because it'd take too long to fill the washing machine with hot and enough cold to make the water warm would cut off the hot water. Then there's the water use issue. You can't use a water saving shower head with an instant system - if you drop the water flow the heat cuts out. And they do burn a hell of a lot ... like everytime you turn the hot water on (even to wash your hands). If you're on bottled gas you are going to go through a lot of it.
Richard

Richard, sounds like the old low capacity units. We have a 4 year old Bosch 16B and have no such problems and we have water saving shower roses fitted. Adjusting the flow should not change the temperature at all, thats the whole point, the heater automatically adjusts to the flow so you only heat what you use.

Our bill is way down on storage and for like $650.00 it would be over 10 years before solar catches up. (thats not the point really). Anyway, I took some convincing to get an instantaneous because of experience like yours, dodgey temp etc, but the new generation units are magnificent. Only way to go, unlimited hot water.

Cheers

[vsquizz]

So Bob, where all waiting with bad ..err baited breath. What did you get?

Cheers

[vsquizz]

Bob?

[Bob Willson]

Hi Squizzy
Sorry for not fixing this up earlier, but I've been on holiday and so I am exhausted. My wife has been planting trees all over the garden for the last 10 years and saying things like; "It won't get out of control, I'll keep it cut back to about 2 metres." So this summer I have been cutting down 5 metre trees from the front and back yards so that they stop digging up the house and allow a little light to filter through again.

I installed a Bosch 18H water heater. It works just as I hoped it would. Constant hot water for showers as long as I like and at whatever tempereature I like.
The water flow is adjustable at the heater as well so that you don't put through too much water for the amount of gas that you have adjusted for. RTHAT is the secret of economy on these things. If someone was not getting good economy then I would suggest that the plumber has just set the water and the gas flow to maximum and left it there.

As I indicated earlier, I was intending to fit the heater myself. I'm glad that I didn't, for a variety of reasons.
1) The gas fitter did a MUCH neater job of the plumbing than I could do. Nice tight curves (Shurrup) and very neat solder joints.
2) Energex requires the gasfitter to send in a form to say that the installation is tested and installed by a gasfitter before they will allow gas to be connected.
3) I did most of the grunt work (sorry Grunt) before he even got there and he appreciated that and so gave me extra.
His quoted price for the job was $180. It took him about 4 hours to do the work which he did under adverse conditions. It started to rain shortly after he got there and the last hour was worked in both rain and dark with me holding a torch for him. I was very impressed with him and gave him a $20 tip. He also advised me that although he could fit a valve that joined all the bottles together It would (if worded properly) be fitted by Energex for free. It was.


Follow up story to above:
A few weeks a go I finished work downstairs and went for a shower. No bloody water. I yelled out to SWMBO to turn off the sprinklers but she yelled back that they weren't on.
Got dressed again and started looking for the reason. Checked all the sprinklers first Nope, they weren't on. Checked the downstairs taps. Nope nothing running there either. Hold on a tick, why is there water coming out of the garage? Opened up underneath and a trickle of water is coming from under a wall that is an internal wall. :eek: Raced outside and stepped into something quite squelchy. The ground by the front corner of the house was soaked. Hmm, think I've solved the problem here. Turn off the water at the mains and start tracking down the exact problem area.
10 minutes later deduced that the problem was UNDERNEATH the slab where the previous owners had concreted over the input water lines and brought the pipes up through the concrete floor....Oh *****.
I knew that I had to dig down to get to the pipes so that I could cut them off and put in new pipes but there was also the matter of a garden archway that had been built over the pipes and concreted into position. The pipes inside the house rose through the floor in a corner of a brick wall. I had a 9" angle grinder and started to cut through the galv pipe as close to the floor as I could get. You will appreciate that a 3/4" pipe in the corner of a brick wall does not allow an angle grinder free and easy access to cut through the pipe. The walls were glowing red hot where I was having to cut into them to get the back of the pipe cut. At last, after about 5 minutes, (the much reduced in diameter) blade managed to cut the pipe and I then had to separate the the rest of it from the house internal plumbing. This bit is hard to describe but: The pipe rose from the floor for about a metre before a T had been added and an external tap had been fitted to the outside of the house. As a consequence of this I could not just bend the pipe out away from the floor as everything was held securely in place by the tap. Luckilly for me I had a footprint wrench. This mighty tool can grab and hold when just about everything else will fail. Using this I managed to unscrew the pipe stub in the corner and get rid of it. This then allowed me to put a plug in the bottom of the T (where I had removed the pipe) and so finally isolate the house water supply.
OK It is starting to get dark now, so check the time; 5:45 on a Saturday. Just got time to get to Bunnings before they close. Race off to Bunnings who are shut because they close at 5:00 on a Saturday. BUGGER!!
What to do, it is dark now, no water, filthy. Inspiration
I went out to the water meter and dug it up so that I could disconnect the water pipe. Replace the fitting on the end of the metre with one that has a pig tail for the Neta click fittings. Connect the hose the hose to both external tap and also metre. Turn mains water back on again turn on tap. Smiles all around. Go inside, turn on tap, NOTHING. Why not? Go downstairs again and review situation. Smite head a massive blow with heel of hand as I realise what I had done; recover conciousness slowly and get tools out to remove washer in tap that is being forced onto seat by reverse flow water pressure. Finally, it works.
It stayed like that for about a week while I dug the trench for the pipe again and this time installed 3/4" Copper pipes with compression fittings and an inline valve just on the corner of the house for turning the water off easily. My garden hose is not a normal hose. I use a hundred metres of the tube that is used on washing machines etc. it never kinks and can hold mains pressure indefinitely. This hose has lasted me about 15 years so far and is still in good nick. If I had not had this hose I doubt that my Jerry rigging would have lasted long.
The increase in water pressure has been great. Sludge in the old galv pipe had reduced it's bore size to less than half what it should have been. However, although the extra water pressure was great to have, that, in conjunction with the new hot water system, blew my shower head to pieces. The shower head cost me $180 so I am currently negotiating with Caroma for a free replacement under warranty.

[vsquizz]

Bob, It never rains it pours (or floods). Great story, had a bit of a chuckle.

The reason I thought to prompt you was I went to have a shower last night and had to turn the tap on three times to get the Bosch 16B to ignite, a sure sign of Bat Flatteries . Is the 18 H for Hydro ignition?. I reckon 18L/min would be absolutley perfect.

I actually put 3/4" copper in a ring main right around my place and this improved the flow no end.

Have fun with the tree lopping, hope Santa got you a BIG mulcher.

Cheers

[aussiecolector]

How is your airconditioner working on the off peak power?

[Bob Willson]

How is your airconditioner working on the off peak power?

I was really hoping that nobody would ask that question.
I thought that I had successfully managed to stop the powewr being turned off to that particular line.
I was wrong.
I need to rethink my strategy on this issue.
Stop asking stoopid questions.

[Bill E]

G'day Bob

Glad you came to your senses about installing the HWU yourself, you and your families safety aren't worth less than $200 .... but I guess you are the best judge of that.

If you had been discovered doing illegal plumbing and gas fitting the horrendous fines from either regulator would have wiped any self satisfied "Saved a mint" smug smile off your face - both gas and water can do a lot of damage when the handimanwork goes wrong.

Before you ask... I am a fully licensed Master Plumber and gas fitter ... in the trade for 47 years and in that time have attended two inquests as an expert witness .... one for a death of a child the other for a major house fire.

Good luck in the future, however always work out what you would pay for your family.... and if it is less than the money you save .... have a go.

[simopimo]

I have the Bosch unit you're talking about - saved me 40% per quarter ono gas bills. Very reliable and MUCH better than keeping a tank full of hot water all the time. HIghly recommended and worth the cost. It cost me about $1300 installed.