so whats our immigration policy?

[wheelinround]

Quite so. Most of our 'illegals' arrive by plane on tourist or other visas, and overstay. If they government was serious, these are the people they would be chasing.

There's a strong argument that the 'boat people' are exactly the type of people we need - they've shown initiative, they're motivated and they've chosen to come here, rather than being here by an accident of birth.

Or does it show they

have enough money to buy their way in
are corrupt enough to try get round or laws and boarder security
So weak they refuse to stand up to their own in their own country

I just got this in an email feel it appropriate

[Ray153]

Or does it show they

have enough money to buy their way in
are corrupt enough to try get round or laws and boarder security
So weak they refuse to stand up to their own in their own country

I just got this in an email feel it appropriate

Or does it show that they have promised to pay a certain price and end up effectively in slavery paying off the debt?

Or perhaps they are often honourable, ethical people placed in a position of such desperation that such principles such as laws and immigration policies are outweighed by the perceived consequences?

Or does it show that rather than refusal to stand up to others in their own Country, is it more likely that they may have made a considered, rational decision that there is little future in sticking around to argue the point with some thug armed with whatever firearm or other weapon they can get their hands on, often provided in the past by a government of some description with little care or concern what use might be made of that firearm years down the track?

There is also the distinct possibility that those who have the opportunity to arrive by plane with visa in hand, have had the luxury of waiting for often years, in a relatively stable Country with little or no apparent threat to their continued existence.....

We as a sovereign Country have contributed in innumerable ways to the stability or otherwise of every nation from which these people have arrived, we have in my view a moral, ethical and humanitarian obligation to these people and cannot just ignore the problems we have helped create.

[wheelinround]

Or does it show that they have promised to pay a certain price and end up effectively in slavery paying off the debt?

Or perhaps they are often honourable, ethical people placed in a position of such desperation that such principles such as laws and immigration policies are outweighed by the perceived consequences?

Or does it show that rather than refusal to stand up to others in their own Country, is it more likely that they may have made a considered, rational decision that there is little future in sticking around to argue the point with some thug armed with whatever firearm or other weapon they can get their hands on, often provided in the past by a government of some description with little care or concern what use might be made of that firearm years down the track?

There is also the distinct possibility that those who have the opportunity to arrive by plane with visa in hand, have had the luxury of waiting for often years, in a relatively stable Country with little or no apparent threat to their continued existence.....

We as a sovereign Country have contributed in innumerable ways to the stability or otherwise of every nation from which these people have arrived, we have in my view a moral, ethical and humanitarian obligation to these people and cannot just ignore the problems we have helped create.

Agree there many reasons how they get here or why they come. The problem is with those who don't go through the channels thre is little way of checking their stories or legal status from where they come.

I agree very strongly with Cruzi unless of original origin to this land prior the time of settlement we came from across the waters.

Letting them in, in the numbers we are via the boat loads isn't helping our own situation or infrastructure. The cost to house and detain them is far greater per head than we pay those who are on pensions, they get better fed and looked after.

[hughie]

...........at the end of the day we should always retain the right to decide who comes to this country, and which nation or nations, ethnicity etc would make the best migrants.

One of the draw backs of boat people seems to be is that its very hard to do any successful checks on their back grounds. And at the end of the day they are illegals who have decided to circumvent the process by arriving on boats navigated toward extreme low population areas.

We may have the lowest population density per sqklm But are we not the driest continent or island and do we not have gaping holes in our present infrastructure?
Its true we need to have more people to broaden the tax paying base. This is required to support the Government and the 5.2 million Baby Boomers who will be retired by 2015.

But then, this was the reason for the baby bonus cash payments and there was a leap in the birth rate. This bonus and its success or failure is being watched by many countries around the world with a similar, if not worse situation.

What concerns me with the current Govt is the policy on the run and ideology that we should throw open the doors to all and sundry. Migration can improve a countries lot.

But we must be able to choose who we want, this is the right of every sovereign nation.

The choice must not be made by others outside of our boarders. As they can hardly be expected to have our best interests at heart.Indeed for the most part I suspect their motives are far from our best interests.

I don't doubt many nations around the world eye the great land mass here and the seemingly low population with envy and perhaps anger as they look at their own problems.

But we have as a nation worked hard and sacrificed much in two world wars and many other skirmishes to maintain the life style and Rule of Law that works. So we must choose who comes and do so with diligence so as to maintain it.

The links below show how such changes can occur with out planning and fore thought. For those who think I am bashing Islam for the sake of it. I am not, its just one clear example of one group of people of another belief structure that is bringing significant change. It can be any largely uncontrolled single group migration to any area, in fact throughout history we can have seen event happen before.

Martin Sobier: France, The First Muslim Country in Western Europe?
Muslim Converts in Germany: Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers -- And Find Them in the Koran - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

[rsser]

Let's not forget eg. that most of those on the Tampa were found to be genuine refugees and given that miserable lifeline called Temp Protection Visas.

Also that under the human rights treaties that the nation has signed up to we are obliged to assess refugees; they are not 'illegals' until determined to have no right to stay. I remain disgusted by the practice of jailing men women and children for years until their status can be determined; it makes me ashamed to be an Australian.

I agree that as a nation we should decide on our population size and mix. At the same time let's not forget that post-war we have run one of the biggest and ethnically diverse immigration programs of any nation - on a bi-partisan political basis and with only minor ethnic tensions. The political leadership that made that possible died with One Nation and the Howard govt's adoption of wedge politics based on xenophobia.

[Big Shed]

Sorry Ern, that sounds rather "revisionist".

I seem to remember that this nation had a White Australia official policy long before One Nation and John Howard came on the scene.

Its' biggest proponent was one Arthur Caldwell, the Labor leader of the time.

Xenophobia has been alive and well in this country, as it has in other countries, for a long time. Just think back to all people of German descent, even those born here, being interred in camps during WWI, all German place names officially being changed. The same thing happened to our Italian citizens. I could go on.

Xenophobia is not confined to one political party, be it One Nation, Liberal or Labor. It is well and truly part of the human condition.

[hughie]

Also that under the human rights treaties that the nation has signed up to we are obliged to assess refugees; they are not 'illegals' until determined to have no right to stay. I remain disgusted by the practice of jailing men women and children for years until their status can be determined; it makes me ashamed to be an Australian.

regrettably many of these treaties were signed with out the knowledge population at large. I agree we should never ever be guilty of such a practice, if the UN process is failing or is too slow then lets get it fixed. Much of the problem today seems to be a lack of will to take the problem of refugees head on. Everybody feels sorry for them but nobody wants them.

It seems to be a problem of inadequate leadership rather anything else. This falls back on us and how we judge and choose our leaders. A well known author made the point the that we in the west choose our leaders today largely on charisma and not on content of character and integrity as was the custom in th e19th and early 20th centuries.

I agree that as a nation we should decide on our population size and mix. At the same time let's not forget that post-war we have run one of the biggest and ethnically diverse immigration programs of any nation - on a bi-partisan political basis and with only minor ethnic tensions.

But it was what we chose at the time rightly or wrong, much of the situation today is foisted upon us by outsiders and any decision other than what they want is frowned upon to say the least.

[damian]

Cruzi: As soon as you play the racism card I stop reading. If you want a debate discuss the issue don't attack the person.

There are 4 seperate issues here: Immigration totals, criteria, refugees in general and those arriving illegally.

1. Immigration totals. Australia is within 330 sq miles of the contigious 48 states of the USA. They support about 300 million people, but they also have fertile soils and fresh water.

We are already overtaxing what fresh water we have and I doubt any of you are going to argue that desalination is a good solution in a world where energy is only becomming more expensive. No doubt some of you have bought the recycling propoganda. Before you point out that human waste approximates the stuff alreading in our rivers and dams take a look at the waste from the factories, hospitals and other stuff that gets dumped in our sewers and take a good long look at the treatment of that water prior to it recycling.

Australia, coincidentally, was covered in rish forests 40,000 years ago. We also had a lot more fauna. I am not a botanist nor an anthropologist, but one or two people more knowledgeable than me ahve suggested that if white man haddn't arrived the aboriginies would have burned the desert right out to the coast by now. Regardless who is to blame the fact is even if the hippie greeny socialist scum would allow building dams in the north, no one wants to live there.

I am yet to see an example anywhere in the world where increased population density lead to an increase in quality of life.

2. Criteria. Personally I think the immigration dept has this about right. I believe the totals should be parity, 30,000 leave 30,000 get in.

3. Refugees. Personally I think it would be better for all concerned if the west took a more proactive role in fixing the problems in these peoples home countries rather than exporting the victims of their problems. Unfortunately the political reality is that unless they have a religeous, political or economic value to someone in power they are left to rot.

4. Illegal arrivals: I am expected to obey the law, and am not rewarded for breaking it. I am bewildered that people who arrive illegally are given legal aid and the right to appeal for years on end if they disagree with MY governments decision. They are not tax payers here, citizens. IMO they should be kept or repatriated at the discretion of the minister with no avenue of appeal.

Finally, I am not an immigrant. My ancestors were born here 6 generations back. I have no where else to go, no divided loyalties and I resent being labelled an invader and not entitled to an opinion. I am a native Australian. My ancestors died defending this country. If you feel I am less entitled than others, well I can't type here what I think of you.

[Waldo]

Once again Damian, exactly

[jimbur]

Ern made an excellent point about Howard and his use of wedge politics.
Much of the present furore is not about a few extra boats coming here but the need for Abbott to find some leverage for his attempt to become prime minister. Unfortunately the media are far more interested in sensationalism than in analysis. Wrap an argument in lycra and it seems to get an airing which I believe it does not deserve.
For goodness sake these are people we are talking about and we are meant to be Australians interested in a fair go.
To see life working, go along to a market like Wantirna on a Sunday morning. People can and do get along despite name calling on the way to assimilation. Older ones among us will remember the use of "reffos", "wogs" etc. Life changed and changed for the better. Look at the food - who'd want to go back to boiled cabbage
Anyway there's my two bob worth,
Jim

[rsser]

Fred, we ditched the White Aus policy, and in the 70s we accepted boatloads of refugees from Vietnam. The linkage between political leadership, public acceptance and media narratives was v. diff then. I'm not saying there was a golden age where no racism existed and the political parties all agreed on immigration/refugee policy. I am saying that it was a very bad turn in this country to have traded for political advantage on xenophobia. Labor and Liberal, if they had cooperated, could have squeezed the political oxygen out of the One Nation agenda.

[Waldo]

I don't think racism comes into this at all. It's the process by how it is done and controlling how we do it. A link was given to debate on how England has been down this road before, and so far as I understand it watching the likes of Lateline as to how they are trying fix the problem.

[Big Shed]

Fred, we ditched the White Aus policy, and in the 70s we accepted boatloads of refugees from Vietnam. The linkage between political leadership, public acceptance and media narratives was v. diff then. I'm not saying there was a golden age where no racism existed and the political parties all agreed on immigration/refugee policy. I am saying that it was a very bad turn in this country to have traded for political advantage on xenophobia. Labor and Liberal, if they had cooperated, could have squeezed the political oxygen out of the One Nation agenda.

From where I am sitting there appears to be little or no difference between Labor and Liberal on illegal immigration. Rudd made a lot of noise during the election about treating illegal immigrants "humanely" (whatever that means) and getting rid of the "Pacific solution".

The reality is somewhat different, as it always is when you have to convert rhetoric in to reality when you actually have your hands on the wheel.

So instead of a "Pacific solution" we now have a "Indonesia solution", instead of a Tamp we now have a Oceanic Viking, we have more boats arriving, instead of closing the hated Christmas Island we now will have to extend it as illegal immigrants wil not be processed for 3 or 6 months.

Actions speak louder than words and Rudd's actions do not match his words.

I agree with the previous posters, we should decide who comes here, it should not be decided by a bunch of people smugglers.

I have nothing against accepting people from Iraq, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan, as we have accepted people from diverse places. But we should be in control of that process.

Perhaps we should cut out the middle man and set up a processing station in Indonesia and sell places on the next cruise ship leaving for Australia. It would cut out a lot of intermediaries and allow the Navy to do something useful rather than be collectors of illegal immigrants.

[Waldo]

[damian]

Fred, we ditched the White Aus policy, and in the 70s we accepted boatloads of refugees from Vietnam. The linkage between political leadership, public acceptance and media narratives was v. diff then. I'm not saying there was a golden age where no racism existed and the political parties all agreed on immigration/refugee policy. I am saying that it was a very bad turn in this country to have traded for political advantage on xenophobia. Labor and Liberal, if they had cooperated, could have squeezed the political oxygen out of the One Nation agenda.

I am not entirely sure what your saying here. I remember the "boat people" thing well. Fraser was pushing for more acceptance of the vietnamese and most australians were against it. I might mention I am not overly concerned about where immigrants come from, merely the numbers.

One nation, or specifically Pauline Hanson, stood up and said what a lot of Australians were thinking. Labour and Coalition closed ranks sensing a threat to their comfortable dualopoly. I looked on in despair as they launched personal attack after slur, and never once gave an intelligent answer to any issue they raised. You are entitled to disagree with me, but I and every other australian is also entitled to an opinion and to express it peacefully. This is what Ms Hanson did, and she was persecuted for her trouble.

The thing is we live in a democracy, and while I happily acknowledge it is an inefficient and deeply flawed system you I and everyone here benifites from it more than we suffer. One thing you have to accept is that if the majority do not feel as you do, despite your best efforts to swing them, you have to accept the outcome. Xenophobia is talked about as if it is universally a bad thing. That is not a foregone conclusion. If the nation is xenophobic then the nations policies should reflect that. I am constantly bewildered that our politicians presume we are celver enough to pick them to govern every 3 years yet not clever enough to have a say in between times. Of course I do _not_ reject the popular democracy, written off by the acedemics, in favour of representative democracy. Just because Athens failed doesn't mean it was the systems fault.

A very many Australians accept things I see as disgusting. I continue to "help them see the light", but accept that as I fail I have to live with their opinions and the result.

I will defend with my dying breath your right to your opinion, and fight you till my dying breath if you try to force it on me.