Milling Machine Quality

[Alby123]

Thanks for that bit about General Tools, nice to know they are honoring there warranty period.

[Alby123]

Got a phone call from Paramount Brown's today regarding their mill and spares; and they told me if parts specific to the machine are needed then they are able to get them without any problems at all. The usual delivery times and type of shipping are reasonable. So now it looks as though the purchase price haggling will be the next thing for me. Thank you everyone for your comments.

[Alby123]

I would not buy a milling machine with a 4MT unless you're very sure that you won't be changing tools frequently. If you plan on buying an ER type collet chuck and using it 90%+ of the time, fine.

Otherwise I'd be looking for R8, ISO 30 or ISO 40 though this one is getting a bit big to expect in that size machine.

Not an issue of taper rigidity, 4MT is plenty rigid. Just all the Morse tapers are a PITA for fast tool changes compared to the self-releasing tapers.

PDW

Hi PDW, as I am new to milling machines I don't quite understand what you mean regarding the 4mt and the ER type collet chuck.
With the comment about morse tapers what are you referring to as I have never heard of the PITA in relation to morse tapers.
The comment regarding R8, ISO 30 and ISO 40 what are you referring to.
Alby

[Michael G]

Morse tapers are not self releasing, so if your spindle has a Morse taper you will have to give the draw bolt a good wack every time you want to change the tooling (that's the PITA). The others Peter has mentioned (R8, ISO30 and ISO40) are self releasing, so tool changes are less of a problem (I was always afraid that I would knock the head out of alignment when I had a MT3 spindle, it was that hard to release).
On the other hand if you are holding cutters using an ER collet system you will undo the collets, not remove the holder so the problems with getting Morse tooling to release are much reduced because you won't do it nearly as often.

Michael

[Alby123]

Thanks Michael, things are now starting to make sense. Obviously I'm going to have a sharp learning curve once I do have a milling machine in my shed.

[Ueee]

WRT to what pdw said, your likely to have to remove a collet chuck from the machine to change cutters anyway. On my hm50 there is no way to hold the spindle whilst the cutter is changed, I use a bench mounted holder to change cutters. On the vernier I can drop it into low range (sub 160 rpm) and undo the chuck in situ.

Cheers,
Ewan

[Pete F]

WRT to what pdw said, your likely to have to remove a collet chuck from the machine to change cutters anyway. On my hm50 there is no way to hold the spindle whilst the cutter is changed, I use a bench mounted holder to change cutters. On the vernier I can drop it into low range (sub 160 rpm) and undo the chuck in situ.

Cheers,
Ewan

The inability to lock the spindle is interesting Ewan, I hadn't seen that, a rather poor oversight in my opinion.

Peter is quite right regarding Morse Tapers, however they can be made to be somewhat self-releasing by having a captured drawbar. None of my machines have a drawbar that ejects the collet, and I cringe every time I whack the drawbar as it's clearly right on the bearings. I try to use a nylon hammer, but just the same it feels just like this

As a rule of thumb, with anything Chinese don't expect to ever be able to buy spare parts. It's not to say that you won't be able to, just don't expect it. If they ARE available now, don't expect them to be available in xx year's time. It's just the way it is. The Chinese philosophy is a disposable society and (as a generalisation) there is no concept of maintaining or repairing anything. If something breaks you throw it out. A bit sad really, but that's what keeps the economy bubbling over.


Pete

[PDW]

WRT to what pdw said, your likely to have to remove a collet chuck from the machine to change cutters anyway. On my hm50 there is no way to hold the spindle whilst the cutter is changed, I use a bench mounted holder to change cutters. On the vernier I can drop it into low range (sub 160 rpm) and undo the chuck in situ.

Cheers,
Ewan

Yes, I expect that's common for machines without a spindle lock of some type. I think that building one would be a really good thing to do. There are a lot of examples of how on the various HSM sites.

If you have to take the ER chuck out every time you need to change a cutter, that's an even bigger reason to avoid Morse tapers IMO. In fact you might as well just use Morse collets directly and be done with it, keep the cutter closer to the spindle nose for slightly better rigidity as well. This is what I used to do when I had a MT3 milling head (which now lives in a cupboard).

MT4 tooling is rare which is another good reason to avoid it. Anyone ever seen a MT4 shank for a boring head? Sure you can make one if you've got to, but I'd rather not. Been there, done that. R8 is common and relatively cheap, MT3 ditto. ISO 30 is frankly the best choice for a small machine if possible followed by R8 (R8 is less rigid and also drives off a friction fit whereas ISO 30 drives off of lugs, also ISO 30 you can swap tools out and back with excellent repeatability in Z axis unlike the other tapers using friction fits) then Morse.

I hope you've budgeted at least double the basic mill price to tool it up. Good news is you don't need it all just to get going. Cutter holders, cutters, vice and clamp kit will do.

PDW

[Big Shed]

My first mill (Sieg X2) had an MT3 spindle and often needed a fair bit of force to release the MT3 taper.

My current mill (DM45) has an R8 spindle and this is a far better system and much easier to release with a fairly gentle tap on the drawbar.

My most used tool in this spindle is an R8 ER25 collet chuck from CDCO, it has 2 flats milled on the chuck body above the ER nut so it is quite easy to change the tool in this chuck using anopen end spanner and the collet nut spanner. I have a couple of drill chucks on 5/8" straight arbors that I also use in the collet chuck so this collet chuck spends a lot of its' time in the mill spindle.

As already said, MT4 tooling is rarer and harder to get than MT3 and R8.

As you are in Adelaide, have you considered one of the 45 clone mills from ozmestore on Ebay?

He has none listed atm but the last one was listed at $1295 and didn't sell. When I was in the market I looked at both the ozmestore and the Paramount Brown versions and there very little difference, except for the spindle and the price (Paramount Brown was dearer).

Geared Head Dovetail Milling & Drilling Machine 1100W/240V/Single Phase | eBay

[Mutawintji]

Hi Fred ...

Is the DM45 you own the same as a Hafco HM46 ?

Greg

[Big Shed]

Hi Fred ...

Is the DM45 you own the same as a Hafco HM46 ?

Greg

Essentially yes, but it has an R8 spindle rather than MT3 and a 2hp CMG (Aust sourced) motor rather than a 1.5hp Chinese motor.

[PDW]

My most used tool in this spindle is an R8 ER25 collet chuck from CDCO, it has 2 flats milled on the chuck body above the ER nut so it is quite easy to change the tool in this chuck using anopen end spanner and the collet nut spanner. I have a couple of drill chucks on 5/8" straight arbors that I also use in the collet chuck so this collet chuck spends a lot of its' time in the mill spindle.

I do the same except I have an ER32 collet chuck. I keep a few small keyless chucks from 6mm up to 12mm capacity on short straight arbors and fit them into a collet as needed. Saves a lot of mucking about *provided* you don't have to take the collet chuck out to change a collet. That would drive me nuts in short order. Probably make a small ratchet strap type wrench or similar to lock it.

PDW

[Alby123]

Well looks like I have a lot more homework to do before I even attempt to get the credit card out. There certainly is lot more to milling than I first thought. I'm lucky in one respect my neighbour is a retired engineer and I am fortunate that I have access to his mill for the moment.
Regarding books on milling are there any books that you could recommend as a starting point for a beginner.
Alby

[Alby123]

Well after some time spent re-reading everyone's post; what I should be looking for is a mill with a dovetail vertical shaft and a 3mt or a R8 spindle. I'm also taking into consideration that I am going to need to have a clamp set, end and slot mill bit, a basic chuck & collet set. Then once I've saved a few more pennies and get a power feed unit for the mill table.
I think initially I'll wait until the Tools and More Expo in July and see what is on offer on the day. Who knows I might even have enough pennies by then.
Alby

[Ueee]

Hi,
as for books i would get a copy of "Milling a complete course" by harold hall Milling A Complete Course Workshop Practice S Hall | eBay, and also get yourself a little black book, Engineers Black Book 2nd Edition-Handy Reference Guide. | eBay

WRT the spindle taper, R8 would definitely be preferred over 3MT.

Cheers