Canned petrol

[nearnexus]

[QUOTE=RedShirtGuy;1
Like most things it's a rare chance for something to go wrong, but in this case, when it does...hooboy, you'll know it...for a split second.

Yep, check this one out.


[url]http://youtu.be/1tYO4jvnJHw[/url]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYO4jvnJHw


Rob

[Acco]

Here's a classic case of static igniting fuel.

Gas Station Fire, Static Electricity Starts a Flash Fire. - YouTube

And it's a fuel tank in a car supposed adequately earthed according to earlier comments.


Rob

Classic case of static, she got out opened fuel cap, touched the bowser which would have got rid of any static build up, puts pump in car, starts fuel flow and then gets in car, gets back out without grounding herself, as she is now carrying static charge from sliding in and out of the car which then causes a static charge when she touches the fuel nozzle.

[Bushmiller]

Thank you for all your comments. My perception is that static electricity can ignite petrol and particularly the petrol fumes. I am sure I have read somewhere that an near empty fuel tank is in fact more potentially dangerous than a full tank.

My main question revolves around how different is the scenario between filling the car and the independent cans? It would seem to me that any spark created as the nozzle is inserted into the can or car fuel tank is a potential problem. The term potential is very apt here as it is the difference and my electrical colleagues often refer to Potential as opposed to Voltage.

Nearnexus' video (thanks for posting) seems to confirm that the possibility of ignition is no different.

I think I'm confused as to the advantage of placing independent fuel cans on the ground. If fuel companies were really concerned about ignition I think we would have to attach an earthing lead before picking up the nozzle.

I have a practical example of how this would work. Quite a time ago we used to have hydrogen delivered by tanker to my workplace. On a particular occasion the flexible hose connection broke at the nozzle during unloading. The hose hose snaked around the place for some while like a cut snake until it finally produced a spark. The hydrogen ignited and the tanker, which was brand new, burnt to the ground. Subsequently a separate wire is run along the hose for security purposes (an industrial equivalent of the safely chain on a wrist bracelet). Also we now have a portable earthing clip, which is attached before unloading hydrogen.

Regards
Paul

[nearnexus]

Hi Paul,

I suppose by putting the cans on the ground and achieving a full and direct earth it pretty much negates the chance of a static fire in this situation.

While that is only a small percentage of fuel fill ups, it is at least one area that can be made safe by this simple action, and fuel companies are doing the right thing in reducing a hazard by this requirement IMHO.

I thought the second video was pretty interesting - shows how easy it can happen, and by the can being on the ground the truck would still be OK and the firies would probably still be doing their landscape gardening and home renovation sidelines.

I have seen fuel hoses on pumps with an external earthing lead to the gun, so it's quite likely that the rubber hose of the others have a metal internal reinforcing mesh (same as hydraulic hoses) to do the same thing.

Rob

[ian]

Have any of you ever bought fuel at a fuel station in a can? Recently I arrived at the local (fuel station, not the other local)with three small cans on the back of my table top ute. They were tied down with a single strap as I normally have the sides and tail gate removed.

The woman at the till had a small go at me because I had not taken the cans off the ute to fill them. She said the regulations stated I had to put them on the ground to fill them and the company rules were that if customers didn't do this it was instant dismissal for the staff involved.

The reason she gave, and presumeably had been given, was that the cans were not earthed. I suspect there is some confusion there. These cans of mine, which were designed for fuel, were between five and ten litres so not too heavy. It would have just been an issue to untie the cans. Probably a bit different if I had bought in a 60 litre drum the way I used to once upon a time. In fact I used to fill a 44gal drum with diesel, although in this case I am talking petrol.

Can anybody explain the rationale behind this requirement and the difference between fueling the vehicle and the cans sitting on the deck? Why is one act safe and the other not?

Paul

as others have said, it's about static electricity, grounding containers, minimising the chance that an accidental spill ends up sloshing around in side a vehicle AND the general lack of "coomon sense" in the general population.

You containers may have been properly secured and at the same potential as the vehicle, you may have stood on the ground and used the fuel nozzel correctly -- but you can garantee that for every careful person like you there is at least two who are not.

[AlexS]

Funny stuff, static. Back in the '60s, the fuel lines of Boeing 707s were lined with a thin plastic film. Inspections found that after service, some of the linings had small holes in them, caused by static arcing from the flowing fuel to the metal pipe. Because the lines were flowing full, there was no oxygen to allow a fire. Can't remember how it was resolved, maybe they decided it wasn't a problem (but probably not).

[Pagie]

I always take my saw fuel containers out of the car and put them on the ground but I dont take the tanks out when filling the boat. The boat tanks are too heavy but they are not earthed in anyway.

[Bushmiller]

I always take my saw fuel containers out of the car and put them on the ground but I dont take the tanks out when filling the boat. The boat tanks are too heavy but they are not earthed in anyway.

The boat trailer itself would be earthed through the trailer connection, but the boat sits on rubber bushes (I am supposing this as I am not a boat owner) so that sounds correct. There do seem to be some inconsistencies in the reasoning.

Regards
Paul

[FXST01]

And the console operator was so concerned about it she waited till you went to the counter to pay. Most service stations have a PA system for this type of announcement, and can stop/warn you before you do anything stupid.

[Bushmiller]

And the console operator was so concerned about it she waited till you went to the counter to pay. Most service stations have a PA system for this type of announcement, and can stop/warn you before you do anything stupid.

In fact she was agitated. What I didn't tell you was she had been waving her arms at me through the glass window which I had misinterpreted. I had been at the service station earlier in the day only to find they had run out of unleaded.

When I returned their fuel delivery had been made and as I stood with the nozzle in the can I thought she was asking if the fuel was coming through. The reflection on the glass wall made it impossible to see her clearly. I was also chatting to a work colleague who said the petrol was not coming though for his vehicle. I think she must have given up and allowed me the fuel anyway.

It was only as I drove away that I twigged to the real meaning of her gesticulations. I don't think they have a pa system.

Regards
Paul