Yet another plane question...

[Vann]

...Like I said, you either love them or hate them & obviously enough loved 'em to keep Record churning them out. I'd advise sticking with what you have for the time being and use them a while, you may fall in love with them or you may not. There are plenty of perfectly normal folks who get along with SS cap-irons just fine...

That's just absolute BS Ian. I get along just fine with SS cap-irons and my children will assure you there's no way I'm perfectly normal .

...And to demonstrate that there's no end to foolishness, Clifton "borrowed" the idea for their (now absurdly expensive) Bailey type bench planes...

I would suggest Cliftons are Bedrock type bench planes.

As mentioned somewhere in this thread, the lower part of the cap-iron (the "deflector" in Record parlance) tends to like to fall off when removing (or installing) the irons - then head for the nearest pile of sawdust/shavings to hide in. There's a simple trick to learn if you're going to stick with the SS. After you've removed the lever-cap, grasp the sides of the double iron between thumb and third or fourth fingers, and extend your index finger to lay on the deflector. It works for me - I haven't dropped a deflector in years.

Another comment: the SS cap-irons were an option. You ordered (for example) a No.04 or you ordered a No.04ss.

I've got a SS of every size from 03ss to 08ss (but I think it's Ian who's got a No.02ss and I'm so envious ). When I bought the No.08ss it was delivered to my brother's place in Dunedin. Next visit I picked it up and was dismayed to find the "deflector" was there but the rest of the cap-iron was missing. I was so happy when a couple of months later this got dropped off.

No.08ss cap-iron.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

[scottbr]

I’m fit, but not young, Ian - turned 60 recently.
I like my #6 and use my #5s a fair bit. I know a youngster getting into woodwork and I might give him the #8 when he’s a bit bigger, assuming he sticks with woodwork.
I met a 20 year old yesterday who shares an interest with his dad in planes and has over 300 of them. I could tell there is an obsessive gene that runs in that family.
the young bloke loved showing me some planes and I enjoyed seeing them.
I particularly liked the Stanley mitre plane. What a beautiful thing it was. A tad more accurate than me and my shooting board.

[IanW]

That's just absolute BS Ian. I get along just fine with SS cap-irons and my children will assure you there's no way I'm perfectly normal . ...

Orright Vann, I'll modify that statement: "There are perfectly normal people & some abnormal people who get along fine with SS cap-irons...."

.....I would suggest Cliftons are Bedrock type bench planes...

Of course! I did know that, having owned one - just put it down to (another) senior moment.

On a serious note, as I said before, I'm certainly not advocating anyone throw their Record in the bin because it has a SS cap-iron! Whatever works for you, works. I'll freely admit my jaundiced views are influenced by my experience with the poorly-made example on my Clifton. It's the one & only example I've used extensively enough to form an opinion. Basing an opinion on a sample size of one is contrary to all my scientific training, I'll admit, but you can't gainsay human nature. However, unless & until I'm confronted by evidence that the SS has any genuine advantages I will continue to believe that it's a solution to a problem that never existed.

Furthermore, I would be delighted to debate the matter with you over a glass or two of something excellent from either of our respective countries....

Cheers,
Ian

[D.W.]

No.08ss cap-iron.jpg

Cheers, Vann.

Wow....we consider stanley 8 cap irons in good shape hard to find in the US. I can't imagine trying to find an original 8 SS cap part!

[IanW]

.... I can't imagine trying to find an original 8 SS cap part!....

It does seem like an alignment of both the planets and the galaxies, but lady Luck is a capricious soul who sometimes smiles on the un-deserving as well as the deserving (strike out whichever doesn't apply in this case.... ).

If you are more concerned about getting the plane usable than having an "original" part, a cap-iron is not all that difficult to make (the "standard" type, that is). The difficulty with the two-piece is the slot & matching spline on the removable toe piece. Child's play for someone with a milling machine, perhaps, but I'd hate to have to do it with hand-tools - keeping it both square & a tight fit would drive me craz(ier). I'm thinking about the T&G joints I've done for split-sole planes; they're challenging enough, but at least you can tidy up minor errors when peening them together. The toe piece needs to be a snug fit or it will add considerably to backlash, I would think...

Cheers,

[scottbr]

It does seem like an alignment of both the planets and the galaxies, but lady Luck is a capricious soul who sometimes smiles on the un-deserving as well as the deserving (strike out whichever doesn't apply in this case.... ).

If you are more concerned about getting the plane usable than having an "original" part, a cap-iron is not all that difficult to make (the "standard" type, that is). The difficulty with the two-piece is the slot & matching spline on the removable toe piece. Child's play for someone with a milling machine, perhaps, but I'd hate to have to do it with hand-tools - keeping it both square & a tight fit would drive me craz(ier). I'm thinking about the T&G joints I've done for split-sole planes; they're challenging enough, but at least you can tidy up minor errors when peening them together. The toe piece needs to be a snug fit or it will add considerably to backlash, I would think...

Cheers,

That joint between the toe and fixed piece is certainly snug and well tooled. Having said that, yesterday i picked up a blade assembly off one of those recent planes I acquired and forgot about the separate toe. It of course jumped off and bounced on the floor and scooted way under a cupboard. That meant getting on my knees and reaching under there with something long and thin and hooked to drag it out. I bet a lot of those toes get lost - reason enough to favour a one piece set up.

[D.W.]

It does seem like an alignment of both the planets and the galaxies, but lady Luck is a capricious soul who sometimes smiles on the un-deserving as well as the deserving (strike out whichever doesn't apply in this case.... ).

If you are more concerned about getting the plane usable than having an "original" part, a cap-iron is not all that difficult to make (the "standard" type, that is). The difficulty with the two-piece is the slot & matching spline on the removable toe piece. Child's play for someone with a milling machine, perhaps, but I'd hate to have to do it with hand-tools - keeping it both square & a tight fit would drive me craz(ier). I'm thinking about the T&G joints I've done for split-sole planes; they're challenging enough, but at least you can tidy up minor errors when peening them together. The toe piece needs to be a snug fit or it will add considerably to backlash, I would think...

Cheers,

I hear you on making the cap irons if they're really needed - there's no way one could buy the right cap iron before they could make one, or even figure out how to make one.

I have a thing for tools being original, though - can't explain it, it's not rational, and another thing for (even with wooden planes) using the old ones after refitting them a little. I just feel like even though I can make an equal plane, that I'll learn something from the original parts.

But I've got a saying that one gets to pretty quickly with even mid early intermediate toolmaking - if you have a need, whether it's a part or a tool, as soon as you can harden and temper steel well, it's awfully hard to ever buy anything other than the most common stuff faster than it can just be built.

[IanW]

..... I bet a lot of those toes get lost - reason enough to favour a one piece set up...

Exackery, Scott. I remember the first article I read about the SS many years ago, & the author was moaning about that very problem! Fortunately for me, the toe-piece of my Clifton fitted tightly in its slot - but crookedly! I was still careful with it though...

David, imo there are two critical features to get right if you decide to make a "sprung" cap-iron, neither of which is very difficult to get right if you're careful (which I'm too-frequently not!). The first is the distance from toe to adjuster slot, which has been much discussed here & elsewhere. The other part is getting the top of the curve at the toe end right under the point where the toe of the lever-cap bears down. There should ideally be a flat at this point so that the pressure remains constant over the travel distance of the blade. In practice, it's a shallow arc on most cap-irons, but the design of the Stanley allows sufficient 'spring' to take up the small difference between the centre point & the extremes (only about a mm each way).

However, as I discovered quite early in my plane-making, if you have the LC bearing on the cap-iron too far forward or back from the centre point it creates problems, you end up with a blade assembly that may resist movement in one direction or the other when adjusting. This happened with my second or third plane, I made the toe of the LC a couple of mm short. The plane was a bear to set! Either few taps would produce no change, or a sudden jump to grossly over-thick shavings, way over what I wanted. I'm embarrassed to confess, it took me ages to figure out the problem! I ended up making a new LC, which sorted things out. Since then I have paid particular attention when fitting a LC!

I like using both old tools and newer ones (especially those of my own make that work well.. ). But some of the old tools I have came to me in a very sorry state, and have parts that are far from original. I do try to find original bits if I can, but have no compunctions against fitting new woodwork if needed. I did go to some lengths to find a "genuine" LC for the 5 1/2 that I got from my dad though. It came with a missing LC (nobody seemed to know what happened to the original), & to get it running I bought a new LC, which fits fine despite the narrower body of the pre-1930 models. But the shiny chromed thing with its 'kidney'-shaped screw slot annoyed the heck out of me, it stuck out like the proverbial canine reproductive bits!

Eventually I found a 'proper' one at a reasonable price (which became far less reasonable when postage from the US was factored in, of course), but I'm pleased I got it 'cos it doesn't offend me every time I pick it up now....

Proper LC.jpg

I think the main thing is that the tool works well & appeals to your sense of aesthetics or practicality or has nostalgic connections or all of the above. I'm convinced a tool that you enjoy using for whatever reason always does a better job...
Cheers,

[scottbr]

I didn't realise you have made planes, Ian. What an inconceivably difficult and precise exercise that must be - much more difficult than making stuff with said planes.
I know the lineage of all my planes, which I like. There are Bert's planes, and his dad's (my grandfather). Then there is one from Doug and a couple each from John and Bruce. All dead now. There is something nice about holding the handle of a plane and knowing the hand that held it for most of its life.
If only one of those blokes had a #2 or a #3. I'm getting the odd person coming here to my shed to work on their own projects and a small plane for a first time woodworker would be useful. I read that Stanley stopped making the 2s and 3s because there was insufficient demand. Of course, as a consequence there is high demand now for them when they show up for sale.

[IanW]

..... I read that Stanley stopped making the 2s and 3s because there was insufficient demand. Of course, as a consequence there is high demand now for them when they show up for sale.

Yes, I was on the lookout for a good #3 for a very long time, but always arrived too late on the scene - good ones tend to be snapped up pretty quickly.

In the end I made my own, based on a #3 blade:

Vers 1.jpg

That was the second infill I made & I did a much better job on it than I did on #1. For a while I was happy with it but for reasons I don't even know myself, some time down the track I felt compelled to make another:

Finished.jpg

This one is fractionally better, I got the sides more flowing and a few other minor details like the angle of the handle more to my liking. Both planes are sweet-enough users and not too heavy for long sessions (they weigh about the same as my old type 11 Stanley #4).

By chance, some years later I cleaned up a type 11 #3C for a friend, and had a good play with it before returning it. I was a bit disappointed to find the thing too cramped for my hand (which is not large, more on the small side of average). My middle fingers kept scraping on the depth adjuster thumbwheel. So my home-built is not only at least as good as a well-fettled Bailey, it's far more comfy to use.

As I keep saying, building a plane is nowhere near as difficult as you may imagine. It can be done with nothing more than hand tools (the technology of cold-working metals goes back a couple of thousand years). I'll admit I was somewhat daunted before I started. I read an article in an early FWW magazine - some old geezer (which I suppose is what I an now! ) built a panel plane & telling us how easy it is. I didn't believe him at all on the "easy" part, but I did fall in lust with the idea of building an infill plane. However, because of work commitments & all those other things that get in our way, it was to be many years before I made a start on my first one. That was a steep learning curve, I didn't have the Forum or the endless "how to" videos on u-tube to guide me so there was a lot of flying by the seat of the pants & a major blunder or two.

One big problem was getting the materials together, which turned out to be quite easy once I knew where to get it, though I had to make some compromises. For example, we can't easily get the softer, easy-to-peen 260 brass alloy here, most brass merchants only carry the harder 380 ("machinable") stuff. But over a few plane builds I learnt that you can use the harder brass quite successfully if you go about it the right way. That's one reason I wrote my "manual" on plane making, explaining some approaches to the task using less than 'optimum' materials. I always stress that I'm no genius as a metalworker, & if I can do it, almost anyone can....

Cheers,

[scottbr]

Good ness Ian, what beautiful things they are.
Too good for the shed. They would be in the pool room.
I like working with metal, but it's always mild steel and things more utilitarian than beautiful.

[IanW]

......Too good for the shed....

Never! Any tools I make planes are always intended primarily to be users. If they look half-decent as well as performing satisfactorily, that is a pleasant bonus....

...I like working with metal, but it's always mild steel and things more utilitarian than beautiful...

Scott, if you have a bit of metalwork under your belt, no matter how crude, you are already ahead of me when I started thinking about my first infill. The seed is planted, some day you are going to give one a try!

Cheers,
Ian

[Jackhov]

Done.
Here are those planes I was given last weekend.
The scraper and the Record ones with the two piece chip breakers.
The #5 and #8 both plane beautifully.
It's unlikely I will use the #8 - it's a big thing. We'll see.
(Goodness knows why my photos have started putting themselves on their side again.)

Attachment 517023 Attachment 517024

Great job Scott.

What method did you use to clean the rust off on these. One of those lever caps was pretty rusty and you've cleaned it up a treat.

[Ozymandiaz]

Hi Scott,

I'm interested in the #8 if you do not end up using it. I'm getting back into woodworking after what seems like a lifetime's hiatus (40+ years) and want to do manual jointing instead of a machine.

I have a thicknesser but love planing. Anyway, let me know.

Cheers,

Duncan

[Ozymandiaz]

I've been using EvapRust with outstanding results on a Rapier #700 Got 100mm sewer pipe and glued a cap on one end. Tipped the entire 5lt. contents into the pipe.

Lowered the long Rapier plane body in attached to wire. Hauled it out after 24 hours and all the rust just hosed off with a Gerni. Brilliant ...

Bugger, most of the paint hosed off as well...

Was going to repaint anyway ...