Is the building industry full of cowboys?

[rod1949]

Here's an example:

A number of times over the last couple of years, I have seen the question asked "should I nail or screw my timber decking to my Duragal steel joists". The gut reaction of most 'experienced' people, is to say "screwing is better". This is the accepted wisdom.

However, if you look in the installation manual for Duragal, it says clearly "OneSteel does not recommend screwing timber decking to Duragal steel joists". It's not excluded by omission, it specifically states that it is not recommended. Now how many blokes do you reckon have screwed their deck down, either not knowing any better, or thinking that they do? Why has OneSteel gone to the trouble of pointing it out?

I bet I know why. I bet in the early days of the product, they had some warranty problems and the boffins determined that the cause was the screws. So to avoid future warranty issues, they print on all their material that screwing is not recommended. If Bob the Builder goes ahead and screws it anyway, he is screwed when it comes time to make a warranty claim.

I don't know why screwing instead of nailing causes a problem. Try and find anyone who works for OneSteel who knows. In fact I've heard at least one story of a OneSteel employee telling someone to ignore it.

Don't you think there is a reason though? Why would they limit their application that way if there wasn't a good reason? Yet so many tradies feel that it can be ignored, or are completely ignorant of the recommendation. Because they know better than the boffins at OneSteel. If they proceed to get their screwgun out regardless, then as far as I'm concerned that is cowboy behaviour. If I felt strongly enough that it was worng, I would ring OneSteel and keep trying until I found someone who could explain to me why. Then I would decide if it was warranted or not on the basis of the information they provide, rather than just saying "well, it makes no sense to me, so I'll just ignore it".

I'm reading this and thinking "what the... how the hell does one hammer a nial into steel." So in checking on Onesteels site, yes you are right with nailing BUT you didn't mention that its a special hardened stainless steel nail and appears to require a special nailer. As most blokes wouldn't have one of these the next best thing is to screw.

Yet ironically Onesteel state to use winged screw teks to flooring that is under cover.

[patty]

I was on the tools for many years it all depends on the project situation hourly rate or quoted job I have seen many tradesman take shortcuts and I am not going to name the trades but on Project work the boss wants you in and out asap "time is money" and money is time but on other projects you can take your time to do the job correctly and also in a safe manner as you are not under the pump I think alot of the so called Cowboy persona that is spoken about comes from Apprenticeship training if you see the boss or the leading hand take a shortcut on a job then that shortcut gets passed on from generation to generation and you can bet the shortcuts will be modified and bettered but bettered for who the tradesman or the consumer? Alot of shortcuts have been thru technology it has made alot of us lazy the other day my ole man asked me if I had a 2 inch nail and hammer my reply was no I have got my cordless and tech screws he grew up with the nail and hammer I grew up with the cordless in my hand not that either is anyway shape or form what I would call a shortcut but old tradies would.......But i also agree with Silents comments that if the manufacturer of a product says it must be done this way then do it that way

[Gaza]

The BCA & Australian Standards are minimum requirements your finished product should out preform these guide lines

Manufactures instructions should be followed to ensure warranty, but even these are a minium.

[bitingmidge]

You hombres go and head him off at the pass, and I'll take the buckboard into town!

Arms is correct to the extent that people do no want to pay for manufacturer's instructions.

Then of course there's the story of the kid who asked Santa for a cowboy outfit for Christmas, and he was given the buiding industry.......

The manufacturer's instructions are there for a reason... remember a stoush I had a year or two ago with a "pro" boatbuilder who said it was OK NOT to use a primer under a particular sort of sealant? Well I've seen things fail because of people who didn't.

Today, I have left a builder replacing TEN THOUSAND screws in a project, four storeys in the air, because a subcontractor knew better.

One of the reasons (ONE OF ... ) that architect-controlled jobs SEEM to cost more, is that there is a tighter level of specification.

On a thread a week or so ago, one or two people from a trade background had said they'd had copper pipe encased in concrete last for more than 25 years. Well gues what?? It can, but a large minority of those sorts of installations will fail. In my experience more than 25% in less than five years. Out of 50 apartments, if you've buried unlagged piping expect 10 or 12 to have ruined kitchens or dug up bathrooms in that time.

The original "tradesman" of course is off doing the same thing for someone else, and has never seen the problem.

Tradies only see their own trade at work, and rarely do the installers get the job of repairing damage, that's left to the "old mainentance guys" who usually have enough experience to work out what went wrong.

Yep, the manufacturer's specs are there to cover their bottoms.... so why not cover your own? I haven't yet met a subbie who has done any research into the shortcut he was taking, or the long term ramifications.

Cheers,

P

[boban]

I had an interesting case that involved (amongst many other things) the installation of a toilet. Now this toilet was worth about a $800 and I estimated that more money was spent with each party making its case with respect to the correct installation.

The Villeroy and Boch instructions (which the owner read) states that the toilet pan is to be siliconed in place. The plumber (in NSW) uses a mortar mix. She is a royal pain in the butt and wants it installed according to the instructions.

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

[bitingmidge]

The Villeroy and Boch instructions (which the owner read) states that the toilet pan is to be siliconed in place. The plumber (in NSW) uses a mortar mix. She is a royal pain in the butt and wants it installed according to the instructions.

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

Will the plumber and/or supervising builder come back the year after next when the mortar has cracked?

P

[bitingmidge]

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

Perhaps the manufacturer is an Indian?

This thread has rustled up some of my worst nightmares! The biggies include:

One project with 3,000 panes of glass rejected, ruined because cleaning instructions weren't read.

A 36 Storey building with complete failure of the paint because the painter knew better than the manufacturer. End result: hand scraping the finish off the entire building and starting again!

Of course there are many like the single toilet suite, but if who is going to stand by the "alternative" method. The building services authority in Qld won't back the builder, that's for sure!

cheers,

P

[echnidna]

Sometimes its necessary to temporarily remove a pan for various reasons

You can remove a pan thats siliconed in place relatively easily

Its virtually impossible to remove a pan mortared in place without breaking it.

The plumber seems at fault -
But was he instructed to use silicon or was he left to his own devices.
The builder may not have noticed though he bears the ultimate responsibility

I detest nit pickers but I'd go with the customer who is entitled to expect a reasonable standard of workmanship.

[boban]

I didn't post the decision to see the reactions, but even the owner's own expert would not give the evidence that the toilet was not installed correctly. From memory both the AS and BCA were complied with.

As you can imagine, the toilet was a minor issue in this case, but particularly noteworthy.

Here in NSW, it is the norm for toilet pan to be placed with mortar.

I've removed a few toilets without breaking them. Actually, all except my parents one. I was not that careful, but it didn't give easily either.

Of all the people I've acted against, she is one who stands out. You can't imagine how pleased I was with her having to fork out the cash to the builder (and both sets of lawyers of course).

[Blocklayer]

If you're complaining about the construction industry being full of Cowboys now, just wait until its full of Indians (and/or other imported labour)

[boban]

Just out of curiosity I went to the Caroma site and had a look at their instructions.

You can find them here www.caroma.com.au/products/index.html

Both methods of installation are OK, but its one of those areas where a manufacturers instructions are not entirely consistent with the BCA or AS. I know that different areas of Australia have their preferences, with plumbers knowing what's acceptable.

Oh I forgot to mention that the aforementioned "lady" was an ex-solicitor. A charming woman and very knowledgable when it came to building.

[bitingmidge]

You can't imagine how pleased I was with her having to fork out the cash to the builder (and both sets of lawyers of course).

Of course!

.... but my pans are siliconed in anyway!

Here in NSW, it is the norm for toilet pan to be placed with mortar.

I do have a problem with that. Since when did "the norm" become the optimum specification? Consensus installation??

On my projects, it's the norm for things to be placed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, OR I get a rather comprehensive document releasing my and my clients and my end-users from any claim arising whatsoever!

Notwithstanding that I've got a few pedants whom I'd like to see on the losing side as well.

Cheers,

P

[boban]

Truth be told BM, the builder was a top bloke and a good builder. He acknowledged that the instructions weren't followed and would have redone it himself to please her. If only that was where the issues ended. However, as I've intimated, she was somewhat unique.

It's not about being the norm being better, but rather an example of how a tradie can do it his way and still be doing it in accordance with the BCA and AS.

I'll admit that I have a habit of reading instructions, which in my experience is not quite widespread as you would expect. On high end jobs, where you are installing PC items or materials that are of significant value, I cannot understand not covering your own butt by reading and following the instructions (or alternatively covering it some other way).

Nor the builder who wont pay $500-$1000 to have a new $500,000 building contract read by a lawyer. Not that I'm going to complain.

[journeyman Mick]

I've seen some cowboys in the building industry, don't know that they're more prevalent than in any other industry. Certainly in Qld I believe that the QBSA has tightened things up a lot and weeded out some of the shonks. It's way, way harder for a tradesman from overseas to become a QBSA license holder than a foreign doctor to get a job in the Qld health service (true, not an exaggeration ) Personally I'm like Silent C's builder mate, call backs cost you time, money and most importantly, reputation. I can happily say I've only ever been called back to a job once.

Mick

[boban]

And there I was thinking that the Cowboys were in Nth Queensland.