self funded retirees

[kiwigeo]

You do make an excellent point for me. Most of the benefits are from service industries especially to the airlines which are reliant on foreign built aeroplanes and probably bought with money borrowed overseas.
Cheers,
Jim

I don't quite follow your line of argument.

Even if the planes operated by Qantas and Skywest are foreign built, the passengers they fly generate income that goes predominantly to Australian owners and/or shareholders and the planes are also crewed and serviced predominantly by Australians.

Yes, all of the businesses I listed are service industries but why is that relevant? Service companies rely heavily on people to operate and that equals employment. All of the service companies I've listed except one (Bristows) are Australian owned and employ mainly Australians. My point is that its not just the CEO's and shareholders that benefit from the activities of mining and (oil and gas) companies.

To throw some figures into the equation....every time I do a hitch at work I spend around $4000 on travel and accomodation. I get in roughly 8 hitches a year which brings the total to $32,000. Add in a couple of cyclone evacuations and the total is getting up to around $40,000. That's the amount of money one person is injecting into the mainly WA service industry through working in the mining/oil and as game....you can quickly figure out that the total amount of money being injected into the Australian economy by all the country's mining and oil/gas workers is huge.

[powderpost]

I agree with N.F. The discussion about who benefits etc. is based on people being employed and having enough working life left, to recover from lost spending power and maintain an acceptable lifestyle. Many of us do not have that privilege and are at the mercy of market forces. This can seriously affect our quality of life. Many of us also are very reluctant or to proud to depend on government handouts.
Jim

[jimbur]

I don't quite follow your line of argument.

.

I was probably overstating the case by calling it my argument.
What I meant was that elements in Looney's article on problems of mineral wealth in the third world could also be seen as applying to Australia in that there is a risk that reliance on one sector of the economy can be detrimental to the development of a more balanced general economy.
The benefits gained from primary production be it mineral, forestry or agricultural or made far greater if value adding can undertaken within the country than if that happens overseas. A simple example is wool which is exported in the raw state and returns as finished articles. A greater flow-on effect is enjoyed by the countries with the means of secondary production.
There is no argument that any productive endeavour creates the need for a service industry and that has flow-on effects as you have described. The danger postulated by Looney (unfortunate name I realise) is that it is so much easier and seemingly cheaper to import consumer and other goods than to develop those industries internally. In the event of a downturn in the value of primary production, whether through market vagaries or simple depletion of the natural resource whatever it may be, there is the risk of a far greater downturn in the economy than if home production took a greater share of the consumer demand.
Cheers,
Jim

[cultana]

One if the main problems in Australia is that it is a service centred economy. There is primary production but the necessary secondary industries to gain from that are really few in comparison and appear to be diminishing.
This is a result of us hugging the flat/level playing field that our governments decided we had to have.
With lack of secondary industries we as a nation are dependent on imports of our exported raw products. This puts us at a disadvantage in the long term.

As far a self funded retiree, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I worked hard long hours and now I get only what I have from my retirement fund, yet I see much of the local trash spending $$ as if it is like water and they get benefits I can but dream of.
Where did I go wrong???

But listen carefully to a political party and you will see that self funded retiree is a fat cat so to speak.

[Fuzzie]

More than 1 issue running here.

1. Why do politicians all seem so incompetent with their noses in the trough?

It's clearly a difficult job otherwise we would have good politicians, universally liked. When was the last good government that all can agree on? Politicians by definition play politics and records of public disenchantment with politicians can be found in historical records going back thousands of years. Basically politics appeals to a certain type of person and the bigger the ego, the better. We just have to hope in a democracy that the electoral system filters out the worst contenders and that debate and consensus work to result in a sane outcome.

Often the problem is that you don't feel like voting for any of the available candidates. I've felt like that at the last few Queensland elections. But if you don't have a credible opposition what do you do? The next federal election is shaping up the same way for me. Similar with local politics, there's usually a lot of people standing to go on the local council, but figuring out what they actually stand for is usually a challenge.

2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.

3. Investment/Superannuation returns.

It's hard to make a buck and it is very scary working out how much you really need to be comfortably self funded. With recent experience and hindsight it is even scarier, but if you look at the really long term charts, things seem to be still going in the normal direction. Relatively the early 70's look far worse, which was when I started work. I hope things don't keep trending down like that for the next 10 years! Personally I find the thought of what all the sovereign debt problems could do to the world terrifying, but what do you invest in to make yourself safe?

[Frank&Earnest]

One if the main problems in Australia is that it is a service centred economy. There is primary production but the necessary secondary industries to gain from that are really few in comparison and appear to be diminishing.
This is a result of us hugging the flat/level playing field that our governments decided we had to have.
With lack of secondary industries we as a nation are dependent on imports of our exported raw products. This puts us at a disadvantage in the long term.

As far a self funded retiree, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I worked hard long hours and now I get only what I have from my retirement fund, yet I see much of the local trash spending $$ as if it is like water and they get benefits I can but dream of.
Where did I go wrong???

But listen carefully to a political party and you will see that self funded retiree is a fat cat so to speak.

I often feel the same way Cultana, but if the local trash have money to spend it is because they have some funny source of income. Last I looked the dole is less than 1/3 of what you earn as a minimum to be off the pension.

[kiwigeo]

2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.

You left out one important factor......China's vast supply of cheap labour. China is where Japan was post WWII. As Japan's labour costs started to increase (people started rebelling against the idea of the company being more important than one's family) the world turned to other countries like Korea for cheap goods. Eventually Korean labour costs will increase and the cheap labour train will move on to another country..until we eventually run out of countries I guess.

[Frank&Earnest]

... If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home....

Yep. That's why it should have been started a long time ago. I can never understand why Australians seem to be very fond of Britain when they were treated no better than the Indians. And Australians never had anybody with the stature of a Gandhi to tell them to weave their own cotton.

[cultana]

I often feel the same way Cultana, but if the local trash have money to spend it is because they have some funny source of income. Last I looked the dole is less than 1/3 of what you earn as a minimum to be off the pension.

Sort of true. But if I have the govt pension, be it age or disability, I would have a lot more concessions than the ZERO ones I have at present. Same applies if I was on the dole.

The big funny source is drying up and will do so even faster when the Army finally takes over the extended Cultana range.

[cultana]

More than 1 issue running here.

1. Why do politicians all seem so incompetent with their noses in the trough?

It's clearly a difficult job otherwise we would have good politicians, universally liked. When was the last good government that all can agree on? Politicians by definition play politics and records of public disenchantment with politicians can be found in historical records going back thousands of years. Basically politics appeals to a certain type of person and the bigger the ego, the better. We just have to hope in a democracy that the electoral system filters out the worst contenders and that debate and consensus work to result in a sane outcome. (sorry just could not help it. the ideals are just too high.)

Why is it a difficult job? It may be more complex than say being a doctor, engineer, etc but that does not mean it is difficult.
The only difficult part is following the party line. It would seem that towing the strict party line is the stumbling block. If politicians were more interested in the states they come from and the needs of those states them the party line would be second to that needs and we might just by accident get real politicians who care in power.
Unfortunately many politicians are little more than trumped up party hacks.

2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.

Well in many cases of build at home we as a nation and in reality our government do not push or in some cases hinder such ventures.
One such venture is the building and exporting of the Bushmaster IMV. This was on the list being looked at by the US but our delightful govt of the day did not move much to make it happen. This also applies with sales elsewhere.
During the war we built the Boomerang fighter and post war the Nomad aircraft. This ability to design and build and market such vanished and that was not really helped much by the govt.

Look at the many industries where we did build it at home and these have now vanished. The level playing field of trade helped heavily here. Notice it is no that level when we want to export to some countries. It is a one way street, them here, we not there. That is a govt problem.

[/QUOTE]

Yes we have a set of dud pollies and we are always told this can be fixed at the next election. Garbage!
One way that a nation keeps dud pollies less dud is having a real media that does real journalistic work. At present facts are few and far between in any media article and half the time the jurnos don't even know what they are writing about.
For the last 2 years most have been wetting their pants with religious hysteria every time a specific little Tin Tin look a like utters an incompressible phrase or two.

[Sebastiaan56]

For the last 2 years most have been wetting their pants with religious hysteria every time a specific little Tin Tin look a like utters an incompressible phrase or two.

Yeh, its a bit like the Palestinians who chose a religious organisation that provided food and social service (Hamas) over the blatantly corrupt Fatah. They love it when democracies make the "wrong" choice. End of little aside.

To be fair, the governments have been sweetening up superannuation so that more people can afford to be self funded in retirement. The baby boomer lump is coming into retirement and the tax system will not be able to afford all those new pensioners. The tax take needs to be increased or we will have pensioners staging a revolution. Tax Departments and Treasuries are paid to deal with this and they will act according to their charters, they go looking for more tax. Ken Henry is just doing his job, he is running out of places to add taxes.

Yes, the stock market is doing what it always has done but few have the resources to ride out the vagaries and short term volatilities of the market. Increasingly Australia is subject to forces outside our borders and these will determine what happens in our markets. By delegating to large financial concerns self funded retirees can have continuity of income but they need to pay a fee for this and so reduce their absolute returns. Im in the phase where Im starting to plan for this and there are tough choices that need to be made.

And when all the easy, lucrative minerals have gone our grandchildren and great grandchildren will become the drones of those who bought and added value to our resources. Australians will have a lucrative business selling the holes in the ground as rubbish dumps for the rest of the world.

[jimbur]

Just a minor point but very important if you are a politician who wants to be seen as a good economic manager. Cheap imports put a damper on rises in the CPI.
Cheers,
Jim

[notenoughtoys]

Eventually Korean labour costs will increase and the cheap labour train will move on to another country..until we eventually run out of countries I guess.

Nah, I reckon it will go full circle and we'll become the 3rd world, cheap labour, country. At least it'll be payback time and we'll be able to annoy someone in Mumbai in the middle of their dinner to sell them some product they don't want.

[Frank&Earnest]

Australians will have a lucrative business selling the holes in the ground as rubbish dumps for the rest of the world.

Actually, that could be a brilliant idea, why don't we do it now? Given that Australia is said to be the most geologically stable continent and we already have a wonderful out of the way place already contaminated thanks to the already mentioned thoughtful care of the British, why don't we make Maralinga the site for the unbelievably high security world's sole deposit of nuclear waste? Much better for the planet than bribing corrupt tin pot countries to dump it in their water supplies and we would rake in the millions. Enough to double everybody's entitlement to the age pension.

[kiwigeo]

Actually, that could be a brilliant idea, why don't we do it now? Given that Australia is said to be the most geologically stable continent

Parts of Australia are relatively tectonically stable but other parts of the continent are actually quite active (eg Adelaide and surrounds). There are also other areas that are not suitable for dumping radioactive or other hazardous waste..such as the large part of eastern and south western Australia that overlies the Great Artesian Basin. The British tests produced radioactive atmospheric material that found its way east and into the charge areas of the GAB. Years later wells on the weatern edge of the GAB registered spikes in tritium and other radioactive isotopes that correspond to the British tests. The GAB aquifer varies in depth with maximum depths of the aquifers occuring at around 3000m.

Salt mines are the best places to stick hazardous waste but unfortunately Australia doesnt have alot of such mines. Abandoned oil/gas wells that penetrated into granitic basement are one good place to store radioactive waste if it can be suitably processed....vitrifying the waste material prior to burial at depth (Synrock) is one process that has been developed. Incidentally the Synrock process is an Australian invention and was being tested at Lucas heights back in the late 80's.