energy sources

[damian]

mic-d,

Good, well stated. I wasn't rying to whitewash chernobyl, it's just that the anti nuc lobby have made wild claims that as far as I know are unsubstantiated, and the media always looking for a beat up love to reiterate the "thousands of children dead and ridden with cancer" headlines.

It is very hard to get to the truth when pretty much every source of information has an agenda.

The AGW thing is a bit like the gun law thing we had in the late 90's. The "anti-gun" lobby wanted to portry us all as homicidal maniacs who wanted free reign on guns, in reality most were "normal" family people who just wanted laws that would achieve something. Likewise the AGW believers want to portray us as champions of pollution, whereas in reality all we want is enviromental policies that will achieve measureable pollution reductions, real outcomes for real problems.

I'll buy into anything that someone can show me will work, but it's got to be rational.

[mic-d]

mic-d,

Good, well stated.

Why do I feel like Darth Vader has just been complemented by the emperor on his conversion to the dark side!

Although your thread is about the global problem, may I ask about more local matters to do with energy sources?

Our average daily electricity usage peak + off peak is around 15KWh and when we had a climate smart monitor installed the guy said if we were interested in a 1.5KWh solar array it would be suitable for our usage. Whats the calculation to convert daily average usage into the appropriate size panel for full offset?
More importantly and its my main question... He went on to say that if we converted to bottled gas for the hot water that our daily daily electricity usage would drop to just over 10KWh (we use about 4.4KWh for hot water)... and we'd get even better value from the solar. So I went looking at running cost for an instant gas hot water system (not start-up, just gas supply) and it works out worst case at about $144 per quarter (rough gas usage for a household of four for 3 months.)

So to my question... we currently pay about $45 per quarter for hot water at the moment, what would be the possible incentive to change to gas and start paying up to $144 per quarter? I really thought that gas running cost would be cheaper but unless I made a mistake it appears much more expensive.

[edit]** just to add some more info... we use 400KWh per quarter on hot water which is 1440MegaJoules of energy. LPG has 50.5MJ/kg (Origin Co figure) so we would use about 28.5kg of LPG/quarter, perhaps a little less because it would be an instant hot water system and in a more central position in the house. So at $3.20/kg gas we would pay about $91.20 per quarter for gas rather than the current $45 for electricity.

[beer is good]

[damian]

Chuckles. Despite what some of you may think I'm not necessarily sith or jedi. I just realised back in the 90's before Al Gore and the church really got going that a scam was brewing, and as I watched the whole ugly thing unfold I saw each lie as it was perpetrated and got more and more resentful...anyway...

You get about 6 hours a day equivalent generation depending on weather and location. So a 1.5 would generate about 9 kWh per day provided it was north facing unobstructed by shadow and kept clear of twings leaves etc. Covering part of one cell can wipe out up to 40% of your generation.

If your willing to do some work you can overspec the inverter on the official install and buy cells at $1/watt from the us, get some aluminium glass and fibro (or similar) and make your own panels. Labor intensive but vastly cheaper.

Gas is problematic.

Natural gas prices have been low until recently because we lacked the infrastructure to export anything like our production. You were essentially buying it for the supply cost. A couple of years ago origin and a few others started signing big export contracts adn the price is creeping up. Eventually it'll skyrocket when those come on line fully. LPG will suffer the same problem when excise is imposed on it. As an aside petrol is the oppsite effect same problem. We lack infrastructure at ports to import petrol, the little we have is held largely by the major companies so competition is stifled. A really practical way for the government to bring down fuel costs is to build those facilities and rent them to importers at a PROFIT. Sigh....

Analysing gas is a bit problematic, your comparing an instant heater to storage etc. There are huge variables for cost between bottled (I assume your looking at that) and piped. Most people I know who've installed bottled serviced gas have been really unhappy at the cost. My only personal experience was years ago on piped in sydney and it shunted my bills skyward because I used so little energy I was paying the entry rate on both the gas and electricity.

Be aware if you go solar people I know have had issues with the smart meters and wrong bills and have invested months of calls and hassle to try and sort it.

I hope to go off grid if I ever manage to sell up in Brisbane and go bush, and I've looked into the options, but it ain't cheap to set up and none of it is easy unles you have deeper pockets than mine.

2c....

Forgot to add, shop around on soalr prices vary hugely, there is a good thread here somewhere about inverter brands. Use the forum Luke.....

[mic-d]

You get about 6 hours a day equivalent generation depending on weather and location. So a 1.5 would generate about 9 kWh per day provided it was north facing unobstructed by shadow and kept clear of twings leaves etc. Covering part of one cell can wipe out up to 40% of your generation.

That easy calculating it huh?... We have a perfect north-facing pitched roof...

If your willing to do some work you can overspec the inverter on the official install and buy cells at $1/watt from the us, get some aluminium glass and fibro (or similar) and make your own panels. Labor intensive but vastly cheaper.

Would it be legal to buy the cells from the US, construct the panels and have the sparky wire it in I wonder? I might speak to my sparky. Where would you source the panels from?


Analysing gas is a bit problematic, your comparing an instant heater to storage etc. There are huge variables for cost between bottled (I assume your looking at that) and piped. Most people I know who've installed bottled serviced gas have been really unhappy at the cost. My only personal experience was years ago on piped in sydney and it shunted my bills skyward because I used so little energy I was paying the entry rate on both the gas and electricity.

Yes looking at bottled but as I've discovered it could be up to twice the running cost of electric and will be around $2k install.

Be aware if you go solar people I know have had issues with the smart meters and wrong bills and have invested months of calls and hassle to try and sort it.


Forgot to add, shop around on soalr prices vary hugely, there is a good thread here somewhere about inverter brands. Use the forum Luke.....

Looking around now ... I can't escape my destiny...

.

[Sebastiaan56]

Google "DIY Solar Panels" Mic. There are a number of sites that teach you how to solder small Solar Cells into full size functioning panels. Solar panel cells are a fraction of the price of constructed panels. Broken cell pieces are even cheaper. That auction site had plenty of very cheap cells last time I looked.

I think are right in that an electrician is needed to verify the functioning of your inverter if you are going to claim a feed in tariff. Its a matter of how much time and patience you have. Currently the price of solar installations is vastly inflated due to lack of competition and a local manufacturing industry.

[mic-d]

Google "DIY Solar Panels" Mic. There are a number of sites that teach you how to solder small Solar Cells into full size functioning panels. Solar panel cells are a fraction of the price of constructed panels. Broken cell pieces are even cheaper. That auction site had plenty of very cheap cells last time I looked.

I think are right in that an electrician is needed to verify the functioning of your inverter if you are going to claim a feed in tariff. Its a matter of how much time and patience you have. Currently the price of solar installations is vastly inflated due to lack of competition and a local manufacturing industry.

OK thanks will check out Google.

[damian]

I didn't make myself clear. Buy an off the shelf 1.5 system or whatever you want, get your rebates or whatever they are, buy a package with an upspec inverter.

THEN after all the paperwork and such is done buy some B grade cells from the US Europe or wherever and make some more panels, another kw or 2 and wire them in. Photovoltaics are ultra low voltage so no licence necessary, the inverter is your bridge between 240 and 12/24 whatever you wire for.

Of course there are bigger savings to be had doing the install yourself. Compare the prices:

sma, aurora inverter, Solar, Gadgets items at low prices on eBay.com.au

to the advertised prices in Australia. You could make ALL the panels and install them yourself and get an electrician to install your inverter and wire it all up. Probably a big saving but I think how the rebates work now it'd be a misery of paperwork. You need to decide how much your time is worth.

You also need to understand clearly the difference between panels and cells. The cells are individual tiles of silicon that generate a tiny voltage each, panels are arrays of cells encased usually in toughened glass a frame and some backing. The cells are soldered together with short lengths of wire and built into the "boxes" to make them panels.

Have a good read there are many many sites that demonstrate how.

Anyone got any good links to bromide battery suppliers in aus, or similar technologies ? It's the storage side I'm still not settled on...

[ColW]

There's a company in Brissy at Seventeen Mile Rocks it produces zinc-bromine battery systems. Can't find any direct links

col.

[mic-d]

Thanks Damian, I got what you meant but used the term panel when I meant cell...
Now there's a whole other list of things for me to spend time on...

[Bushmiller]

The silliest thing is the lack of funding for thorium powered reactors there is no need for any alt power at all...

No, no,no Harry it is not silly at all. You obviously don't realise that you can't make a nuclear warhead using thorium.

While there are countries out there that have nuclear power and no nuclear weaponry, there are no countries with nuclear weapons that don't have nuclear power.

It is a progression, albeit quite a big one. For an atomic reactor the fuel needs to be enriched around 4%. For a bomb the enrichment is around 97%.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

There are a few harsh realities out there which we have to acknowledge.

No single power souce is going to be ideal.

We, and others around the world, have existing power generators. Without these generators we would not enjoy life as it is, particularly in the so-called "western world." (occassionally, but probably erroneously refered to as the civilised world).

It is frankly childish to think that with a stroke of the hand we can eliminate the existing infrastructure. The consequential misery that would occur from that would far outstrip the arguable effects of polution and global warming.

Unfortunately "facts" are masked by unscrupulous political and entrepreneureal interests. Everyone is pushing their own agenda. Even you and I to a lesser extent. very few of us push a cause guaranteed to cost us in the immediate future. (If you doubt this consider the petty issues on which political elections are fought, won and lost.)

I must now declare a threethings to you. ('Cos someone's bound to blow the gaff anyway.)

I work as a control room operator in a relatively modern (supercritical), privately owned power station, which is thermally fired (black coal.)

I do not like nuclear power as it currently exists nor do I like the way it's proponents gloss over the pitfalls as if they are insignificant. Someone commented on the cost of clean up from the latest Japanese debacle. Have a look at the costs involved at Three Mile Island and how long it took and that was nowhere near the same level of catstrophe.

I really like the concept of solar power.

Having stated my prejudices, I think that we have to stay with existing power stations. Even allowing for my self interest, I just don't see how we could realistically dispense with them. Natural attrition will take care of the older station that are inefficient. What we should be doing is ensuring that any power station built from now on passes the "clean" test. I don't quite know what that will be.

Just on solar. No australian government has got serious. There is the potential for any house in australia to become a mini power station. You don't have to reclaim land or get approval. Just wack the panels on the roof and generate while ever the sun shines, which out here is pretty good. It won't supply all our needs, but we have the existing generators to easily cope with the shortfall and for when the sun doesn't shine.

This is not the be all and end all, but it does give us breathing space to develop new technologies and strategies. Btw I don't think you should hold your breath on "clean" coal. Take CO2 sequestration. Pilot plants had been created in VIC, NSW and QLD. I heard the other day (it may be rumour) they have been canned. They only captured a very small percentage and that cost more electricity to do than if they had just let the CO2 escape.

Why hasn't solar happened?

There is no consistency in the deals offered.
They may not be for very long periods and what happens after that?
They are still expensive in the capital stage
They are often for small amounts (1.5kw) and any upgrade is not at the same return
The average household probably requires between 5kw and 7kw per hour on average. (Have a look at your bill, it tells you the daily consumption.)

My own belief on solar failure is because the governments are not really serious about providing incentives on a conssistent long term basis. This is because they get nothing (revenue) from it and in fact it costs them.

Regards
Paul

[damian]

Disturbingly Paul I agree with you 100%.

[Bushmiller]

Disturbingly Paul I agree with you 100%.

Damian

"Disturbing!" You've hit the nail right on the head.

Regards
Paul

[Sebastiaan56]

Well there wont be many campaign donations coming from us solar powered roof people. Of course the electricity generators and distributors may be happy about that.

On an aside Fukushima was a melt through see Japan raises spectre of Fukushima 'melt-through' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) I wonder how many pollies and commentators are hammering the NIMBY's now...