for any doubters of EEE ultra shine

[silentC]

What Neil was saying is that if you polish a raw bit of timber with EEE it will look nice and shiny but after awhile it will dull, because EEE is not a finish in it's own right - even though it contains some wax, not enough stays on the job to call it a finish. You use EEE to prepare the job before finishing, this is it's primary purpose as I understand it.

However, if you use EEE as a cutting compound to polish an existing finish, the shine you get is in the finish that you have polished, not the EEE. So depending on whatever the actual finish is, the shine should last. So if you use EEE to polish shellac for example, the shine you get will be from the fine surface that EEE gives to the shellac and it should be as durable as the shellac. You can improve an existing finish with EEE and the results will be durable.

That's my understanding.

EDIT: The other thing about your question is that you wouldn't "put on a coat" of EEE. You apply EEE and then buff it off. It doesn't stay on the job. Think of it as a cutting compound.

[Cliff Rogers]

What SC says.

[RETIRED]

Just a little caution. You can cut through the existing finish if you go really hard at it with EEE.

Hasten slowly.

[OrcaSoul]

What Neil was saying is that if you polish a raw bit of timber with EEE it will look nice and shiny but after awhile it will dull, because EEE is not a finish in it's own right - even though it contains some wax, not enough stays on the job to call it a finish. You use EEE to prepare the job before finishing, this is it's primary purpose as I understand it.

However, if you use EEE as a cutting compound to polish an existing finish, the shine you get is in the finish that you have polished, not the EEE. So depending on whatever the actual finish is, the shine should last. So if you use EEE to polish shellac for example, the shine you get will be from the fine surface that EEE gives to the shellac and it should be as durable as the shellac. You can improve an existing finish with EEE and the results will be durable.

That's my understanding.

EDIT: The other thing about your question is that you wouldn't "put on a coat" of EEE. You apply EEE and then buff it off. It doesn't stay on the job. Think of it as a cutting compound.

OK, thanks - and to Cliff as well. The way you explain it makes sense, and does put what I've read in some perspective.

I've also re-read the instruction sheet that came with the last batch of Shellawax - in which I had missed the part about using the Shellawax soaked cloth to rub the polish in; I was using a clean cloth each time, which may explain the dry streaks I've been getting.

I'll retry the applications tomorrow.

Again, thanks for the help.

[OrcaSoul]

Just a little caution. You can cut through the existing finish if you go really hard at it with EEE.

Hasten slowly.

Yeah, I can see that happening - when I started using these products, I put on a whole lot "just to be sure"...Now I've gone the other way and am probably not using enough to get full service. It all takes time, trial & error to learn how to best work with it.

I would like to find it in a larger package, though - the first set went fast with 30 bowls!

But, if it sells more bowls for a better price, probably worth every penny - assuming I can bear to part with the beauties, of course....

[ubeaut]

G'day OrcaSoul - Here's a whale of an answer for you. Sand by hand to at least 600 or 800 grit making sure tho eradicate the sanding marks from previous grits before continuing on to the next one. If you use a Rotary Sander you can stop sanding at 400 grit then use EEE. This is possible because the sander eliminates all sanding marks form the surface of the timber. For top quality work I would use the Rotary Sander to sand up to 1200m or even 1500 then apply the EEE. It'll knock your eyes out.

Apply the EEE with the lathe stopped. A quick light rub over the entire surface. Don't use too much as the excess will only be wasted up the walls and up the front of you. Turn the lathe on, running as fast as is safe for the size bowl you have on it. I usually run almost everything at around 1800rpm (too lazy to turn the knob on the variable speed) Back to the EEE. Use the same piece of rag you spread it on the surface with and work it back and forth across the surface of the piece until you can see a mirrored image of the rag and your fingers in the face of the work.

With the lathe still running, use a clean soft piece of rag to remove any wax that may still be on the surface of the work. It should feel completely dry and the fingers and rag should glide over the surface when felt with the lathe stopped. If your fingers stutter or drag then there is still wax on the piece that needs to be removed. More clean soft rag.

Make a thick wad of clean soft rag and apply enough Shellawax to cover the area of a dime this should be more than enough to do an 8 to 10 inch bowl inside or out (not both). Quickly and as evenly as possible spread this over the surface of the work and immediately turn the lathe on. Use the same dampened section of rag start in the center, apply a heavy pressure then move at a medium speed to the outside rim of the bowl keeping the same heavy pressure as you go, then continue on back into the center and out and in etc all the time watching the polish move with the movement of the rag. Once this movement of the polish stops and you see a light haze instead the polishing is done, lighten up the pressure and continue for a couple more runs over the surface, then use a clean soft piece of rag to remove the haze (which is the wax from the brew being drawn to the surface of the work), STOP!!

OK you're finished the bowl looks brilliant and everyone thinks you are amazing and it all took less than 3 minutes. How simple was that.

A few hints.
Use the rag you apply the Shellawax with the same way you would use any turning tool. Once it is in position keep it on a constant angle and position during the entire process. One of the main causes of lines on the work is using too much Shellawax. The excess will build up at the bottom of the rag where it contacts the timber and if you lean back onto that wave, it will try to lay down a new coat of the polish on the one you're working on. Hence the lines that look like bad sanding marks.

Not enough Shellawax will give you bright and dull strips and look terrible.

Poor sanding technique is also a bit of a problem as is not sanding high enough and then expecting EEE to bail you out, which it will to a point. However there is no substitute for good preparation sanding.

Use Shellawax for everything up to 8" diam that needs a brilliant and bright finish. Use Shellawax Cream for a slightly duller, softer look. Mix Shellawax and Shellawax Cream together to work on bigger pieces up to 3 ft diameter.

Trial it out on scrap or practice pieces before jumping in boots and all and putting it on a $5,000 masterpiece.

For all functional work (pens, knife handles, etc) apply 2 to 3 coats consecutively, same goes for functional bowls, goblets etc. For decorative work that'll be admired but not used or handled too much, 1 application is usually plenty.

The finish will dull if not sanded high enough or timber is not dry. The same will happen with some oily timbers.

Not all timbers will look the same. You can do exactly the same thing on 10 different pieces of wood and get 10 completely different looking finishes. Some will look like they have a glass coat on an inch deep on them and will flash like tiger eye or opal. Others will look dead and lifeless.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

PS you can use the EEE over the top of Shellawax but as has already been said don't get too heavy handed with it and preferably use it over something that has had 2 or three coats.

Also better to wait for the cross linking process to finish (around 20 days) as the surface is a fair bit harder then and will take a bit more to cut through.

PPS Bit more info HERE but it's starting to get a bit outdated in some bits as we change our way of thinking about and using these products.

Phew...

[Lukey]

What does eee stand for?

[OrcaSoul]

Neil, wow - quite a bit of an answer, thanks!

G'day OrcaSoul - Here's a whale of an answer for you. Sand by hand to at least 600 or 800 grit making sure tho eradicate the sanding marks from previous grits before continuing on to the next one. If you use a Rotary Sander you can stop sanding at 400 grit then use EEE. This is possible because the sander eliminates all sanding marks form the surface of the timber. For top quality work I would use the Rotary Sander to sand up to 1200m or even 1500 then apply the EEE. It'll knock your eyes out.

OK, my sanding process: Start with 80 grit, sand by hand with the lathe stopped & running along the grain lines to 600 g, removing all marks at each level. Then turn on the lathe, power sand through the same levels checking at each for any problems. Then I use micro-mesh from 1,500 to 12,000 with the lathe stopped - smoothing out every surface until no resistance or rasping sound indicates any imperfections.

On most pieces, this gives a nice surface - but the Ultra Shine added that final touch that made the work shimmer...I love this stuff!

On some, usually maple or some exotic like Bubinga, there seems to be "flat" spots that resist all efforts - and often don't show until the final finish is applied...very aggravating.

Apply the EEE with the lathe stopped. A quick light rub over the entire surface. Don't use too much as the excess will only be wasted up the walls and up the front of you. Turn the lathe on, running as fast as is safe for the size bowl you have on it. I usually run almost everything at around 1800rpm (too lazy to turn the knob on the variable speed) Back to the EEE. Use the same piece of rag you spread it on the surface with and work it back and forth across the surface of the piece until you can see a mirrored image of the rag and your fingers in the face of the work.

Here's where I think I've started to go wrong - I was using too much, and not using the same rag to spread it after starting the lathe. FYI, I was doing it the way you describe, but finding glossy hard patches on the rag where I was rubbing - most likely because I was rubbing too hard. The more I read on Ultra Shine I realize that I mis-understood what it actually is...probably because the first time I saw it used it was presented as a wax, and the final surface. This was at a wood show, the demonstrator probably didn't want to take the time to go further, wanted the immediate "ooh" value, and was selling the EEE...

With the lathe still running, use a clean soft piece of rag to remove any wax that may still be on the surface of the work. It should feel completely dry and the fingers and rag should glide over the surface when felt with the lathe stopped. If your fingers stutter or drag then there is still wax on the piece that needs to be removed. More clean soft rag.

Again, sounds like I was being too heavy handed...thanks for clearing that up.

Make a thick wad of clean soft rag and apply enough Shellawax to cover the area of a dime this should be more than enough to do an 8 to 10 inch bowl inside or out (not both).

That little of the Shellawax? No wonder I've been having problems! - I was using a lot more than that! I'd put it on until it started to dry, then get some more for the rest of the bowl.

Quickly and as evenly as possible spread this over the surface of the work and immediately turn the lathe on. Use the same dampened section of rag start in the center, apply a heavy pressure then move at a medium speed to the outside rim of the bowl keeping the same heavy pressure as you go, then continue on back into the center and out and in etc all the time watching the polish move with the movement of the rag. Once this movement of the polish stops and you see a light haze instead the polishing is done, lighten up the pressure and continue for a couple more runs over the surface, then use a clean soft piece of rag to remove the haze (which is the wax from the brew being drawn to the surface of the work), STOP!!

OK you're finished the bowl looks brilliant and everyone thinks you are amazing and it all took less than 3 minutes. How simple was that.

And how simple I feel... I would spread it, then let it dry for 3 minutes (read that somewhere!) and then wipe with a clean cloth - not the one used to apply it with.

A few hints.
Use the rag you apply the Shellawax with the same way you would use any turning tool. Once it is in position keep it on a constant angle and position during the entire process. One of the main causes of lines on the work is using too much Shellawax. The excess will build up at the bottom of the rag where it contacts the timber and if you lean back onto that wave, it will try to lay down a new coat of the polish on the one you're working on. Hence the lines that look like bad sanding marks.

Makes sense...

Not enough Shellawax will give you bright and dull strips and look terrible.

Not enough, or too much? Not sure I am reading that correctly.

Poor sanding technique is also a bit of a problem as is not sanding high enough and then expecting EEE to bail you out, which it will to a point. However there is no substitute for good preparation sanding.

True, no matter what finishing you use...

Use Shellawax for everything up to 8" diam that needs a brilliant and bright finish. Use Shellawax Cream for a slightly duller, softer look. Mix Shellawax and Shellawax Cream together to work on bigger pieces up to 3 ft diameter.

Most of my work is 6" to 10" - but I just bought a Nova 1624, so am looking at doing larger work...big change from the 12" Rigid I started with!

Trial it out on scrap or practice pieces before jumping in boots and all and putting it on a $5,000 masterpiece.

$5,000? Well, nothing wrong with dreaming...

For all functional work (pens, knife handles, etc) apply 2 to 3 coats consecutively, same goes for functional bowls, goblets etc. For decorative work that'll be admired but not used or handled too much, 1 application is usually plenty.

The finish will dull if not sanded high enough or timber is not dry. The same will happen with some oily timbers.

Not all timbers will look the same. You can do exactly the same thing on 10 different pieces of wood and get 10 completely different looking finishes. Some will look like they have a glass coat on an inch deep on them and will flash like tiger eye or opal. Others will look dead and lifeless.

Yes, I've noticed that about wood...

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

PS you can use the EEE over the top of Shellawax but as has already been said don't get too heavy handed with it and preferably use it over something that has had 2 or three coats.

Also better to wait for the cross linking process to finish (around 20 days) as the surface is a fair bit harder then and will take a bit more to cut through.

PPS Bit more info HERE but it's starting to get a bit outdated in some bits as we change our way of thinking about and using these products.

Phew...

Amen... Neil, thanks a lot for this info - clears up a host of questions I've had.

And thanks for the great product!

Stephen

[ubeaut]

But wait.......... There's more.

Not enough, or too much? Not sure I am reading that correctly.

Mostly not enough. However something similar can also happen with to much and also if applied with the lathe running.

Then I use micro-mesh from 1,500 to 12,000 with the lathe stopped - smoothing out every surface until no resistance or rasping sound indicates any imperfections.

Turn the lathe on for the last couple of grades of micro-mesh. Apply Shellawax directly to the raw timber without using the EEE. You could get an amazing surprise.

When you look at the application part of rag (after applying Shellawax) it should be hard and glazed. You are basically burning the polish into the timber, making it become one with the wood due th the heat generated through friction.

What does eee stand for?

EEE-Ultra Shine

The EEE is a play on words or a bit of dumb Aussie humor. At the factory we write it as E3 for short.

In an emergency here in Aus you dial 000 also known as triple Oh.

Most Aussies call 3 E's or EEE triple E.

The abrasive used in the product is Tripoli which is a mineral stone mined in the US. This is also why the colour of the product can range in colour from a dirty gray through to a bright orange. Natural stone, natures colours.

I guess it's really just an Aussie thing or at least an English speaking thing. In Canada it's purely known as Ultra Shine The rest will never mean anything in French or any other language.

Cheers - Neil

[OrcaSoul]

But wait.......... There's more.
Mostly not enough. However something similar can also happen with to much and also if applied with the lathe running.

OK, just a matter of learning the correct amount.

Turn the lathe on for the last couple of grades of micro-mesh. Apply Shellawax directly to the raw timber without using the EEE. You could get an amazing surprise.

I'll give that a try.

When you look at the application part of rag (after applying Shellawax) it should be hard and glazed. You are basically burning the polish into the timber, making it become one with the wood due th the heat generated through friction.

So, what I thought was gouging the surface was actually doing it's job...hmmm.

Thanks

[OrcaSoul]

OK, progress report on the finish:

Neil, I tried the method as you described it - prepared the lovely piece of Figured Maple by sanding all the marks & scratches out, down to the 12,000 micro mesh. Applied the EEE as recommended with a small amount on the bottom of the bowl, then rubbed it in and polished with the lathe running - came out very nice and shiny with no streaks or dull spots. Then put the Shellawax on the bottom, light as you said to, turned the lathe on and rubbed it to a very high shine - absolutely lovely finish on the bottom! What that does for tiger maple is a sight for the ages...looks 3 feet deep on that side!

So, I look at this and think I'll try your other suggestion on the top of the bowl - just the Shellawax, no EEE. Small spot, wiped it real quick - I see what you mean by a little bit goes a long way - and then turned the lathe on and rubbed as hard as I could. It did the heat thing, the line moved across the surface, and it went on with no problems.

However...it is not very shiny...a very nice satin but not the glow I expected. Put on another coat, same look. Tried a coat of EEE, then the Shellawx, no better.

Can I sand the entire surface of the top of the bowl and then redo the entire finish? I'ts not bad as it is, just not quite what I had expected it to be.

One note - when I say Shellawax, I am talking about the cream, not the liquid. Would there be a difference in what one gives on raw wood as opposed to the other?

The revised method does work, fine smooth and clear finish with no flaws, so at least I know what I was doing wrong: too much material, letting the Shellewax dry too long, and not using the same cloth to rub as used to apply.

So, I'm happy with what I have, just curious as to why this top didn't come out as I thought it would...the bowl is a gift for a friend, so I can just say it's "supposed to be that way!" & smile when I say it...

Thanks for the help,
Stephen

[RETIRED]

Can you post a pic of the bowl please orca?

[OrcaSoul]

Can you post a pic of the bowl please orca?

Sure - here are 3.

Here's the bottom, showing the shine & tigering:
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-021_g.jpg

This is the top, a lot duller - but still very nice:
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-021_b.jpg

And the side view, for reference:
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-021_h.jpg

The bowl is 9" across, and just under 2" deep.

This shows clearly why I love this figured maple so much!

Stephen

[RETIRED]

Ta much.

I would hazard a guess that the problem with the shine on the rim is that it is very open grain and on some timber like that you won't get as good a shine as the rest.

The other possibilty is that you are not putting as much pressure on the rim as the rest. You sometimes have to put a cloth behind as a "counter" to the front pressure.

[OrcaSoul]

Ta much.

I would hazard a guess that the problem with the shine on the rim is that it is very open grain and on some timber like that you won't get as good a shine as the rest.

The other possibilty is that you are not putting as much pressure on the rim as the rest. You sometimes have to put a cloth behind as a "counter" to the front pressure.

Yeah, both possible reasons occurred to me as well.

But, as you can see from the next one I did, using EEE on both sides, with the same kind of wood, the shine seems to come through well top & bottom:
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-022_a.jpg
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-022_b.jpg
http://www.splinterscraftworks.us/sh...Ti07-022_c.jpg

Although, the top is a bit softer than the bottom on this as well...

Not being able to put as much pressure on the inside could be a cause though, I'll have to experiment with it.

Thanks