Electric, Hybrid or Just Wait

[crowie]

Something that bothers me about batteries in electric cars is the cost to first produce the battery, the cost of replacing them and the inability to recycle the batteries.
I’ve also heard that in newer cheaper electric cars the batteries are in the substructure of the floor pan and aren’t replaceable.
Sorry folk I’m a fan of the style & sounds of old school muscle cars and electric doesn’t cut it.
Cheers crowie

[BobL]

If I only did relatively short hops, I'd jump into an EV right now; possibly a Tesla. But I want the flexibility and convenience of my current vehicles. I could deal with a 15 minute break every 200 kms but there just aren't enough fast recharging stations in rural locations to make it worthwhile. I live in an apartment in Sydney and like most, there are no power outlets in the garage, much less in each car space. Goodness knows how many amps would be needed to recharge multiple cars overnight in a block of flats.

It turns put that it's not that bad.
Large blocks of flats are able to draw many hundreds of amp feeds from the grid and from about midnight to dawn flat occupants use stuff all power so they could be charging car batteries during this time. In most cases fast charging is not needed so midnight to 6am charging should be OK. A Tesla 16A 3P wall charger adds about 75km per hour of charge to the battery so 6 hours will almost top up a near flat battery. Not every one will be completely recharging their batteries every night - just like most people don't fill up with fuel everyday so I don't think power is an issue. Large blocks of flats can also fit very large solar PV systems most of which they don't use but cars at home during the day could charge up from this power source.

[woodPixel]

On unit charging, in my block of flats, all the cars are parked down stairs.

When I enquired whether a recharger could be added to my spot, the body corp had absolutely no problem with this as long as it was metered.

Of course I had to pay for the install, but this wasn't too onerous.


I suggested that they install a few public chargers in the visitor parking, but they did not want to do this.... even though it added value to the block.... cest les vie.

[elanjacobs]

Tesla are so far ahead of the game that I suspect it's going to be hard for traditional manufacturers to catch up

Maybe in the tech department, but Tesla still has a LOT of catching up to do in terms of actually being able to build cars properly.

[q9]

It's not the range that's holding it back, it's the cost.
Make it cheaper to buy+run than the similar petrol ones and people will buy them, range or no range.

Short range is an impediment to large scale up take. More range = more demand = higher volumes = lower cost. Eventually.

I'd not bet against the established players just yet.

[elanjacobs]

Something that bothers me about batteries in electric cars is the cost to first produce the battery, the cost of replacing them and the inability to recycle the batteries.

There are developments in recycling tech happening. An Aussie mob called Envirostream says they can reclaim some 90% by weight of old batteries for re-use, and they're surely not the only ones working on it. I think I heard that there are also programs to ship them to developing countries to use as power storage for village solar setups; they can still hold a charge, just not enough to be useful in a car.

Sorry folk I’m a fan of the style & sounds of old school muscle cars and electric doesn’t cut it.

+1
Not muscle, but rice-burning VTEC yo 6-speed manual and 9000 rpm can't be replaced by the sound of a souped up Dyson

[DomAU]

Can I ask what the main motivation(s) for buying an electric car are?

Is it on environmental grounds?

Is it on an overall cost of ownership basis?

Is it just because it's new and 'cool'?

Is it for some performance/functional reasons?

I ask because the answer may be significantly different under each.

On environmental grounds i'd say that keeping your current for as long as possible, maintaining it, driving it with mechanical sympathy and in an efficient way, and perhaps most importantly avoiding driving where possible is the least impactful to the environment overall.

If it's cost of ownership i'd say it's unlikely to be a good idea yet.

If it's for cool points then buy now while it's still cool and not the norm - then we'll be fondly reminising about petrol cars.

If it's functional / performance fair enough - although petrol is still better here.

Also, I don't want a car that logs my movements and usage or requires software updates or is monitored / connected at all times. No thankyou.

Cheers, Dom

[elanjacobs]

On environmental grounds i'd say that keeping your current for as long as possible, maintaining it, driving it with mechanical sympathy and in an efficient way, and perhaps most importantly avoiding driving where possible is the least impactful to the environment overall.

Ehhh...I'm not so sure about that

If it's cost of ownership i'd say it's unlikely to be a good idea yet.

Again, not so sure. Your ongoing maintenance costs are basically nothing because nearly all the consumables on normal cars don't exist with an EV; all you have left is wiper blades, tyres and brake pads (which you'd need to buy anyway), and you won't have to replace the pads nearly as often because of regenerative braking via the motor.

If it's functional / performance fair enough - although petrol is still better here.

Depends what kind of performance you mean; petrol still wins around a track in most cases (the Porsche Taycan might have something to say about that), but, if all you want to do is mash the accelerator and teleport down the road, you can't beat a top end Tesla in a straight line this side of $1m

[Chris Parks]

I wonder why no one has come up with a car which allows a fully charged battery swap.

I think I'll wait for EVs to catch up. I

mick

Nisan tried the battery replacement in Israel years ago and the idea fell over badly. Tesla are taking the opposite approach with making the batteries an integral part of the car. Right now I think it is too early for anyone who regularly commutes in rural areas over longish distances in Oz. It can be done but most people would not like the restrictions it places on their trips. The last long trip I did was 11 hours straight without getting out of the car but then I have done that sort of driving since I got a license.

[DomAU]

Ehhh...I'm not so sure about that


Again, not so sure. Your ongoing maintenance costs are basically nothing because nearly all the consumables on normal cars don't exist with an EV; all you have left is wiper blades, tyres and brake pads (which you'd need to buy anyway), and you won't have to replace the pads nearly as often because of regenerative braking via the motor.


Depends what kind of performance you mean; petrol still wins around a track in most cases (the Porsche Taycan might have something to say about that), but, if all you want to do is mash the accelerator and teleport down the road, you can't beat a top end Tesla in a straight line this side of $1m

I reckon if you totalled up all of the carbon emissions and environmental damage related to the manufacturing of a car (including mining and manufacturing steel - which is one of the largest sources of carbon emissions alongside concrete) as well as the impact of lithium mining, it would take many many many years to offset that purely from fuel use - and you'd need to be doing many km's. Hence not producing another car, prolonging the life of existing cars and avoiding their use (ride a bike, take public transport, carpool etc) would be the best option.

In terms of cost, other than the engine, gearbox and radiator you still have brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, filters, air-con, bushings, tyres, etc. But yeah I'm sure you do save some on engine oil & filters, timing belts, cooling system etc. Though given the high purchase price vs petrol and likely depreciation as tech improves i'm not sure the total cost of ownership would be lower - assuming that the battery lasts as long as claimed and that you don't have electronic issues.

In terms of performance - straight line acceleration off the line is impressive but also the least important aspect - I suspect the handling of a nearly 2 tonne Tesla would pale in comparison to a similarly priced car from the big auto makers.

Cheers, Dom

[BobL]

I reckon if you totalled up all of the carbon emissions and environmental damage related to the manufacturing of a car (including mining and manufacturing steel - which is one of the largest sources of carbon emissions alongside concrete) as well as the impact of lithium mining, it would take many many many years to offset that purely from fuel use - and you'd need to be doing many km's. Hence not producing another car, prolonging the life of existing cars and avoiding their use (ride a bike, take public transport, carpool etc) would be the best option.

I agree that avoiding their use is very important but as we are an ageing population with crappy public transport system I can't see that happening.

Even using just fossil fuel powered electricity to charge batteries recent research shows a significant reduction in environmental damage.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s418...heguardian.com

As soon as renewables are used for recharging it's game over.

In terms of cost, other than the engine, gearbox and radiator you still have brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, filters, air-con, bushings, tyres, etc. But yeah I'm sure you do save some on engine oil & filters, timing belts, cooling system etc. Though given the high purchase price vs petrol and likely depreciation as tech improves i'm not sure the total cost of ownership would be lower - assuming that the battery lasts as long as claimed and that you don't have electronic issues..

Conventional vehicles don't have electronic issues???

In terms of performance - straight line acceleration off the line is impressive but also the least important aspect - I suspect the handling of a nearly 2 tonne Tesla would pale in comparison to a similarly priced car from the big auto makers.

"Pale" is a big claim.
Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.
It turns out that all that acceleration is really useful for coming out of corners.
You have to remember that Audi and BMW have bout a century of motoring heritage to draw on whereas EV manufacturers have ~1/5th of that

Forgot to add that my brother who has owned several Audis and BMWs (and currency has 6 cafe racers) pretty much agrees with that track test. He's reached that stage in his life where he just wants hassle free (mainly city) motoring. He was very concerned about the charging aspects but he says that he's used to is now and has yet to be caught short.

I do realise EVs still don't suit a lot of Aussies needs, like I said we needed 2 tone towing capacity for the next 2-3 years and couldn't wait for something like the cyber trick so we went for a basic Diesel 4WD.

[Chris Parks]

The Tesla has near nil service costs compared to an ICE powered car. Brake life can be +200,000 kms because of regen braking which effectively gives the driver one foot driving as the brake pedal in normal start stop is never used. All the oily bits plus the entire drive line are gone, and it is those especially the transmission that produce the most maintenance problems. A vast majority of mechanical work is replacing transmissions, turbos whole motors etc and that is done every day as a routine job to many many cars. The forecast is that with the arrival of BEV's the workload will be so low that service depts will shed the majority of staff. The service schedule for a Tesla is seen here a few minor items annually Car Maintenance | Tesla Australia Looking at that you will appreciate why the service side of the motor industry is going to be decimated in the long term.

Every argument and problem listed in this thread has been aired elsewhere thousands of times and most of the problems raised have proven to be wrong many times over. The BEV at the moment is not a good fit for Oz because of the lack of infrastructure to support it and remote area operation is sill not possible and it will be interesting to see where the ICE vehicles come from when Europe shuts down the production of them.

The European legislators have taken a hard nosed approach and have legislated for zero tail pipe emissions by certain dates and these are backed by crippling punitive fines which will bankrupt even the major manufacturers if they are not met. Tesla are selling carbon credits to several manufacturers who are lagging in their emissions reduction program and Fiat is one of those companies.

[BobL]

When I visited the US in 2006 I met an environmental scientist in the US EPA who was relatively "green". He had a solar passive house with an organic waste recycling system, and even back then he had solar panels. Normally he cycled to work and most other places but on days he drove to work his daily drive car was a mint condition 454 Chevy behemoth that he bought new in 1970 and it had since done less than 150k miles and had done all the repairs and servicing himself. I went for several sides in it and reckon you could sit 5 people on each of the front and back bench seats in that thing.

Eventually I got to know him well enough to ask how he justified ownership of such a vehicle in view of his "green-ness"?

He told me he had done a full carbon budget on it and explained that as he only did about 4000 miles a year in that car he reckoned the car had at least 10 more years of life in it it was less carbon polluting than buying a new car. However he did say that whenever the time came he was going to buy an electric vehicle. This came in 2015 when developed heath probs and could no longer cycle to work and had to drive everywhere. The good thing was he had kept the car in such good condition that he was able to sell it for close to the cost of the electric vehicle he ended up purchasing.

It's a interesting story but I don't think it's that applicable to many Australians living in public transport-less 'burbs

[DomAU]

I agree that avoiding their use is very important but as we are an ageing population with crappy public transport system I can't see that happening.

Even using just fossil fuel powered electricity to charge batteries recent research shows a significant reduction in environmental damage.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s418...heguardian.com

As soon as renewables are used for recharging it's game over.


Conventional vehicles don't have electronic issues???



"Pale" is a big claim.
Have a look at this - skip through to the 19 minute mark for the lap times.
It turns out that all that acceleration is really useful for coming out of corners.
You have to remember that Audi and BMW have bout a century of motoring heritage to draw on whereas EV manufacturers have ~1/5th of that

Forgot to add that my brother who has owned several Audis and BMWs (and currency has 6 cafe racers) pretty much agrees with that track test. He's reached that stage in his life where he just wants hassle free (mainly city) motoring. He was very concerned about the charging aspects but he says that he's used to is now and has yet to be caught short.

I do realise EVs still don't suit a lot of Aussies needs, like I said we needed 2 tone towing capacity for the next 2-3 years and couldn't wait for something like the cyber trick so we went for a basic Diesel 4WD.

Top Gear's assessment of the Model 3's handling - "the remote, synthetic steering feels like it’s come off an early Xbox rig and the brakes are mushy.

The Performance can be coaxed into powerslides, but you can sense the sheer mass heaving around in direction changes and the Model 3 feels out of sorts when pushed..."

Also, in the recent reliability survey conducted by J.D. Power Tesla ranked dead last with 2.5 issues per car sold in the first months of ownership, further - “They are exclusive and look great and do some very good things, but they aren’t that reliable and when they break, they are not easy to fix,” Fisher said. Regardless, Fisher said he enjoys driving Teslas.

So in terms of both performance and reliability / cost of ownership i'm not convinced.

I agree that the impact to the environment is likely lower for an EV vs an equivalent IC vehicle, however that was not my point. The impact would certainly be lower not producing another vehicle to begin with, and prolonging use of the vehicles we already have vs disposing of them prematurely. If nobody had a car and we were starting fresh then yes, EV would likely be better for the environment. But the rate of production would also have an impact - if we want vast quantities of metals, lithium, etc in a hurry to quickly convert all vehicles over, it's likely to lead to less than desirable practises from an enviornmental standpoint.

I think it's the future, amd rightly so, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the environment trying to convert all IC vehicles to electric asap. And obviously any car is net bad for the environment - just how bad will vary.

Cheers, Dom

[BobL]

I wouldnt necessarily rate Top gears assessment of anything better than the guys in the vid link I supplied. Drive Feel is highly subjective and is not something even experienced drivers can get used to quickly especially if they have only driven conventional cars.

In 20 years time we’ll be asking ourselves what the fuss was all about.

Shall we talk about driverless cars? I can’t wait. I used to be a very keen driver and would drive anywhere just to go for a drive, now I’d rather be doing something else like sleeping.