Primary Response

[Wongo]

.nope as was the case in China the same day 20 children were injured by a nutjob with a knife

I thought most people would use it as an example to show why guns should be banned. Most of us wish Adam Lanza had a knife.

[FenceFurniture]

There's a rather black side to this that I just don't get. An M4 assault rifle can fire 700 to 1000 rounds per minute, which is 11 to 16 rounds per second. How come there were only 27 killed?

On the issue of a buy-back of weapons by the govt, I think that this would be reasonably easy to afford over the longer term. If we look at the cost to America of only this latest massacre, it would be a staggering amount of money. Costs would include:

• 27 autopsies (funerals need not be counted because they will eventually happen anyway)
• Attendance of all the emergency services, police etc
• Coroners costs
• The investigation/inquiry
• the lost productivity of the 20 children over their lifespan (and that we be in the millions per life)

It would probably be safe to say that this single episode has cost America in the order of $100,000,000 and quite probably more. If they offered $5000 per weapon in a buy-back that would get 20,000 of these weapons off the streets. I don't know what an M4 costs, but a quick search suggests about $1500, and so you'd have to think that many owners would jump at the chance of a quick $3500 profit.

Bear in mind that every new massacre brings a higher and higher death toll, presumably because each idiot wants to outdo the last.

[nrb]

The comment i heard on melbourne radio by a caller who said "until the people of the usa love their kids more than they love guns" nothing will change.

[artme]

Yes, the collective mentality of the USA is very baffling.

I have had the pleasure of spending some time over there and am always
impressed by the friendliness and courtesy of the people. This is totally at
odds with with so much of what we see in relation to guns and rights.

Quite frankly I don't think the USA has truly matured as a nation.

I expect plenty of brick bats for that statement and will expand when
I see the responses.

[FenceFurniture]

I broadly agree Art, but the Americans I've met have not been in the USA (perhaps they're in holiday mode). You're right - it's baffling.

[Grumpy John]

I snapped this quote from Jimi Hendrix at the Experience Music Project in Seattle. It's not about guns, but guns are about power.

Hendrix Quote.jpg

[Bushmiller]

There's a rather black side to this that I just don't get. An M4 assault rifle can fire 700 to 1000 rounds per minute, which is 11 to 16 rounds per second. How come there were only 27 killed?

On the issue of a buy-back of weapons by the govt, I think that this would be reasonably easy to afford over the longer term. If we look at the cost to America of only this latest massacre, it would be a staggering amount of money. Costs would include:

• 27 autopsies (funerals need not be counted because they will eventually happen anyway)
• Attendance of all the emergency services, police etc
• Coroners costs
• The investigation/inquiry
• the lost productivity of the 20 children over their lifespan (and that we be in the millions per life)

It would probably be safe to say that this single episode has cost America in the order of $100,000,000 and quite probably more. If they offered $5000 per weapon in a buy-back that would get 20,000 of these weapons off the streets. I don't know what an M4 costs, but a quick search suggests about $1500, and so you'd have to think that many owners would jump at the chance of a quick $3500 profit.

Bear in mind that every new massacre brings a higher and higher death toll, presumably because each idiot wants to outdo the last.

Brett

You make some very valid points, but you may not have taken into account that the US is dire financial straits and anything that impinges on their so-called freedom will be viewed in a very dim light. The cost would be enormous for a buy back such as we did here in Oz.

Remember that we are not talking about one or two guns per person. Without having delved into the amount of gun ownership I would hazzard a guess that it would be getting close to double figures per head of population. I base this on knowing that there are people that virtually own arsenals. I worked with an american who told me his father had four hundred guns. This bloke was a lay preacher!

Just a sec while I put on my charlatan hat; That's better . An assault rifle that can fire 700 rounds per minute will discharge it's magazine in two to three seconds. With a heavy hand most of the bullets would go through the same person. Having said that, I think there should be a facility to fire no more than 3 rounds with each trigger squeeze. Why are they allowed such weapons? Excellent question. Even some handguns have large magazine capacities.

I am afraid there is no easy solution to the american problem, particularly while the NRA has such a big say in the country and has high profile personalities shouting their cause. Well at least one of them has now died, but their political clout remains.

I think those of you who have said people kill (not guns) are correct, but the more guns there are in circulation the greater the liklihood there is of some nutter going beserk and gaining access to a highly lethal weapon . I suspect there are a lot more americans, mostly innocents, who have their name written on a bullet somewhere. We will hear of them posthumously.

Regards
Paul

[A Duke]

Hi,
My only concern is "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns."

A memento of some of the "interesting times" I have lived in, in my 73 and a half years.
Regards

[Wongo]

At least outlaws don’t normally go around shooting innocent people or kids. Most gun related crimes here are bad people killing bad people.

[A Duke]

At least outlaws don’t normally go around shooting innocent people or kids. Most gun related crimes here are bad people killing bad people.

What about the innocent truck driver from a couple of blocks away who copped a stray bullet in Sydney when a few hoods were having a shoot up in the Mac Donald's car park. You also have to remember hold up victims who are just trying to do a day's work, and the drive bys where the wrong house has been shot up.
Leaving the hoods to shoot each other up does not seem like a safe option to me.
Regards

[DavidG]

Wikipedia

Per 100,000 population

Country	Total firearm-related death rate	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional	Undetermined
El Salvador	50.36	50.36	NA	NA	NA
Jamaica	47.44	47.44	NA	NA	NA
Honduras	46.7	46.7	NA	NA	NA
Guatemala	38.52	38.52	NA	NA	NA
Swaziland	37.16	37.16	NA	NA	NA
Colombia	28.11	27.1	0.87	0.14	NA
Brazil	19.01	18.1	0.73	0.18	NA
Panama	12.92	12.92	NA	NA	NA
Mexico	11.14	10	0.67	0.47	NA
United States	10.2	3.7	6.1	0.2	0.1
Philippines	9.46	9.46	NA	NA	NA
South Africa	9.41	NA	NA	NA	NA
Montenegro	8.55	2.06	6.49	NA	NA
Paraguay	7.35	7.35	NA	NA	NA
Nicaragua	7.14	7.14	NA	NA	NA
Argentina	5.65	3	2.01	0.64	NA
Canada	4.78	0.76	3.72	0.22	NA
Zimbabwe	4.75	4.75	NA	NA	NA
Serbia	3.9	0.62	2.81	0.18	0.29
Finland	3.64	0.26	3.34	0.02	0.02
Switzerland	3.5	0.52	3.15	0.1	0.07
Costa Rica	3.32	3.32	NA	NA	NA
Uruguay	3.24	3.24	NA	NA	NA
Croatia	3.01	0.57	2.35	0.07	0.02
Barbados	3	3	NA	NA	NA
France	3	0.22	2.33	0.05	0.41
Austria	2.94	0.18	2.68	NA	0.08
New Zealand	2.66	0.17	2.14	0.09	NA
Estonia	2.54	0.3	1.57	0.07	0.6
Slovenia	2.44	0.05	2.34	NA	0.05
Belgium	2.43	0.29	1.96	0.01	0.16
Malta	2.16	0.48	1.68	NA	NA
Peru	1.87	1.87	NA	NA	NA
Israel	1.86	0.94	0.71	0.03	0.19
Republic of Macedonia	1.04	0.45	0.42	0.08	0.08
Luxembourg	1.81	0.6	1	NA	0.2
Norway	1.78	0.04	1.72	0.02	NA
Portugal	1.77	0.48	1.09	0.02	0.18
Czech Republic	1.76	0.12	1.39	0.1	0.15
Slovakia	1.75	0.18	0.94	0.39	0.24
Lithuania	1.61	0.24	1	0.03	0.33
Georgia	1.54	0.23	0.09	1	0.23
Greece	1.5	0.59	0.84	0.04	NA
Sweden	1.47	0.19	1.2	0.06	0.01
Denmark	1.45	0.22	1.16	0.04	0.04
Latvia	1.43	0.18	0.94	0.04	0.27
Bulgaria	1.35	0.23	0.87	0.14	0.11
Italy	1.28	0.36	0.81	0.08	0.03
Kuwait	1.25	0.36	0.06	0	NA
Iceland	1.25	NA	1.25	NA	NA
Germany	1.1	0.06	0.94	0.02	0.08
Moldova	1.04	1.04	NA	NA	NA
Australia	1.05	0.09	0.79	0.02	0.15
Ireland	1.03	0.36	0.56	0.04	0.07
Kyrgyzstan	1.01	0.53	0.07	0.28	0.13
India	0.93	0.93	NA	NA	NA
Hungary	0.85	0.13	0.72	NA	NA
Cyprus	0.83	0.24	0.48	NA	0.11
Uzbekistan	0.68	0.58	0.03	NA	0.08
Spain	0.63	0.15	0.42	0.05	0.01
Netherlands	0.46	0.2	0.24	0.01	0.01
Taiwan	0.42	0.13	0.12	0.11	NA
Belarus	0.38	0.38	NA	NA	NA
Ukraine	0.35	0.35	NA	NA	NA
United Kingdom	0.25	0.04	0.17	0.01	0.02
Poland	0.26	0.02	0.12	0.02	0.09
Singapore	0.24	0.07	0.17	0	NA
Romania	0.2	0.04	0.06	0.09	0.01
Hong Kong	0.19	0.12	0.07	0	NA
Mauritius	0.19	0	0.09	0.09	NA
Qatar	0.18	0.18	NA	NA	NA
South Korea	0.13	0.04	0.02	0.05	NA
Japan	0.07	0.02	0.04	0	NA
Azerbaijan	0.07	0.04	0.01	0.02	NA
Chile	0.06	0.06	NA	NA	NA

[DavidG]

Wikipedia

Country	Guns per 100 residents (2007)
United States	88.8
Serbia	58.2
Yemen	54.8
Switzerland	45.7
Cyprus	36.4
Saudi Arabia	35
Iraq	34.2
Finland	32
Uruguay	31.8
Sweden	31.6
Norway	31.3
France	31.2
Canada	30.8
Austria	30.4
Germany	30.3
Iceland	30.3
Oman	25.5
Bahrain	24.8
Kuwait	24.8
Macedonia	24.1
Montenegro	23.1
New Zealand	22.6
Greece	22.5
United Arab Emirates	22.1
Northern Ireland	21.9
Croatia	21.7
Panama	21.7
Lebanon	21
Equatorial Guinea	19.9
Qatar	19.2
Latvia	19
Peru	18.8
Angola	17.3
Bosnia and Herzegovina	17.3
Belgium	17.2
Paraguay	17
Czech Republic	16.3
Thailand	15.6
Libya	15.5
Luxembourg	15.3
Australia	15
Mexico	15
Mauritius	14.7
Guyana	14.6
Gabon	14
Slovenia	13.5
Suriname	13.4
Guatemala	13.1
South Africa	12.7
Namibia	12.6
Armenia	12.5
Turkey	12.5
Denmark	12
Italy	11.9
Malta	11.9
Pakistan	11.6
Jordan	11.5
Chile	10.7
Venezuela	10.7
Spain	10.4
Argentina	10.2
Belize	10
Costa Rica	9.9
Estonia	9.2
Somalia	9.1
Transnistria	9.1
Russia	8.9
Zambia	8.9
Albania	8.6
Ireland	8.6
Portugal	8.5
Slovakia	8.3
Jamaica	8.1
Brazil	8
Barbados	7.8
Nicaragua	7.7
Algeria	7.6
Belarus	7.3
Georgia	7.3
Iran	7.3
Israel	7.3
Moldova	7.1
Ukraine	6.6
Maldives	6.5
Kenya	6.4
Swaziland	6.4
Bulgaria	6.2
England and Wales	6.2
Honduras	6.2
Colombia	5.9
El Salvador	5.8
Hungary	5.5
Scotland	5.5
Sudan	5.5
Cape Verde	5.4
Seychelles	5.4
Bahamas	5.3
Dominican Republic	5.1
Mozambique	5.1
Morocco	5
Botswana	4.9
China	4.9
Cuba	4.8
Philippines	4.7
Afghanistan	4.6
Taiwan	4.6
Zimbabwe	4.6
Cambodia	4.3
India	4.2
Burma	4
Netherlands	3.9
Syria	3.9
Turkmenistan	3.8
Azerbaijan	3.5
Egypt	3.5
Bhutan	3.5
Palestine	3.4
Bolivia	2.8
Cameroon	2.8
Djibouti	2.8
Congo	2.7
Lesotho	2.7
Ivory Coast	2.4
Senegal	2
Mongolia	1.9
Comoros	1.8
Vietnam	1.7
Guinea-Bissau	1.6
Liberia	1.6
Mauritania	1.6
Trinidad and Tobago	1.6
Malaysia	1.5
Nigeria	1.5
Sri Lanka	1.5
Uzbekistan	1.5
Benin	1.4
Brunei	1.4
Democratic Republic of the Congo	1.4
Tanzania	1.4
Uganda	1.4
Ecuador	1.3
Kazakhstan	1.3
Poland	1.3
Burundi	1.2
Laos	1.2
Guinea	1.2
Papua New Guinea	1.2
Burkina Faso	1.1
Chad	1.1
South Korea	1.1
Mali	1.1
Central African Republic	1
Tajikistan	1
Togo	1
Kyrgyzstan	0.9
Gambia	0.8
Madagascar	0.8
Nepal	0.8
Lithuania	0.7
Malawi	0.7
Niger	0.7
Romania	0.7
Haiti	0.6
Japan	0.6
North Korea	0.6
Rwanda	0.6
Sierra Leone	0.6
Bangladesh	0.5
Eritrea	0.5
Fiji	0.5
Indonesia	0.5
Singapore	0.5
Ethiopia	0.4
Ghana	0.4
Solomon Islands	0.4
Timor-Leste	0.3
Tunisia	0.1

[Wongo]

What about the innocent truck driver from a couple of blocks away who copped a stray bullet in Sydney when a few hoods were having a shoot up in the Mac Donald's car park. You also have to remember hold up victims who are just trying to do a day's work, and the drive bys where the wrong house has been shot up.
Leaving the hoods to shoot each other up does not seem like a safe option to me.
Regards

Ok this is one dead. Keep going. Give us another 20 kids and 6 adults.

Beside how is it going to help if the truck driver had a gun, should he join in too?

[DavidG]

Per 100,000 population - Sorted by homicides

South Africa	9.41	NA	NA	NA	NA
Iceland	1.25	NA	1.25	NA	NA
El Salvador	50.36	50.36	NA	NA	NA
Jamaica	47.44	47.44	NA	NA	NA
Honduras	46.7	46.7	NA	NA	NA
Guatemala	38.52	38.52	NA	NA	NA
Swaziland	37.16	37.16	NA	NA	NA
Colombia	28.11	27.1	0.87	0.14	NA
Brazil	19.01	18.1	0.73	0.18	NA
Panama	12.92	12.92	NA	NA	NA
Mexico	11.14	10	0.67	0.47	NA
Philippines	9.46	9.46	NA	NA	NA
Paraguay	7.35	7.35	NA	NA	NA
Nicaragua	7.14	7.14	NA	NA	NA
Zimbabwe	4.75	4.75	NA	NA	NA
United States	10.2	3.7	6.1	0.2	0.1
Costa Rica	3.32	3.32	NA	NA	NA
Uruguay	3.24	3.24	NA	NA	NA
Argentina	5.65	3	2.01	0.64	NA
Barbados	3	3	NA	NA	NA
Montenegro	8.55	2.06	6.49	NA	NA
Peru	1.87	1.87	NA	NA	NA
Moldova	1.04	1.04	NA	NA	NA
Israel	1.86	0.94	0.71	0.03	0.19
India	0.93	0.93	NA	NA	NA
Canada	4.78	0.76	3.72	0.22	NA
Serbia	3.9	0.62	2.81	0.18	0.29
Luxembourg	1.81	0.6	1	NA	0.2
Greece	1.5	0.59	0.84	0.04	NA
Uzbekistan	0.68	0.58	0.03	NA	0.08
Croatia	3.01	0.57	2.35	0.07	0.02
Kyrgyzstan	1.01	0.53	0.07	0.28	0.13
Switzerland	3.5	0.52	3.15	0.1	0.07
Malta	2.16	0.48	1.68	NA	NA
Portugal	1.77	0.48	1.09	0.02	0.18
Republic of Macedonia	1.04	0.45	0.42	0.08	0.08
Belarus	0.38	0.38	NA	NA	NA
Italy	1.28	0.36	0.81	0.08	0.03
Kuwait	1.25	0.36	0.06	0	NA
Ireland	1.03	0.36	0.56	0.04	0.07
Ukraine	0.35	0.35	NA	NA	NA
Estonia	2.54	0.3	1.57	0.07	0.6
Belgium	2.43	0.29	1.96	0.01	0.16
Finland	3.64	0.26	3.34	0.02	0.02
Lithuania	1.61	0.24	1	0.03	0.33
Cyprus	0.83	0.24	0.48	NA	0.11
Georgia	1.54	0.23	0.09	1	0.23
Bulgaria	1.35	0.23	0.87	0.14	0.11
France	3	0.22	2.33	0.05	0.41
Denmark	1.45	0.22	1.16	0.04	0.04
Netherlands	0.46	0.2	0.24	0.01	0.01
Sweden	1.47	0.19	1.2	0.06	0.01
Austria	2.94	0.18	2.68	NA	0.08
Slovakia	1.75	0.18	0.94	0.39	0.24
Latvia	1.43	0.18	0.94	0.04	0.27
Qatar	0.18	0.18	NA	NA	NA
New Zealand	2.66	0.17	2.14	0.09	NA
Spain	0.63	0.15	0.42	0.05	0.01
Hungary	0.85	0.13	0.72	NA	NA
Taiwan	0.42	0.13	0.12	0.11	NA
Czech Republic	1.76	0.12	1.39	0.1	0.15
Hong Kong	0.19	0.12	0.07	0	NA
Australia	1.05	0.09	0.79	0.02	0.15
Singapore	0.24	0.07	0.17	0	NA
Germany	1.1	0.06	0.94	0.02	0.08
Chile	0.06	0.06	NA	NA	NA
Slovenia	2.44	0.05	2.34	NA	0.05
Norway	1.78	0.04	1.72	0.02	NA
United Kingdom	0.25	0.04	0.17	0.01	0.02
Romania	0.2	0.04	0.06	0.09	0.01
South Korea	0.13	0.04	0.02	0.05	NA
Azerbaijan	0.07	0.04	0.01	0.02	NA
Poland	0.26	0.02	0.12	0.02	0.09
Japan	0.07	0.02	0.04	0	NA
Mauritius	0.19	0	0.09	0.09	NA

[FenceFurniture]

DavidG, thanks for those lists. Stats are always useful in this sort of debate (even if mine were a bit out Paul ).

Would it be possible to combine both lists? I think it would be interesting to look at the two together, but at this point it looks like the UK model should be looked at. Other models that would be really interesting to see would be where the gun ownership is up, but the deaths are down - but that may not exist eh?