How should I restore this saw?

[IanW]

Ian, i'll weigh in on the tapered back saws (aka canted),

there are a few good (practical) reasons for tapered blades ! , they feel more balanced (thats actually an important reason imo) but is more noticeable the larger the tenon saw gets, obviously everything has diminishing returns as they get smaller in size, but it is still there (so if your an old manufacture making a premium saw you might want your whole range to have the feature). it also benefits for the same reasons a full size saw is tapered (not to be confused with 'ground tapering' which is the gauge/thickness of steel) and that is it adds strength to the blade and directs the forces to the handle, when the blade is rectangular the strength gets dispersed to places you dont want..in normal terms of usage it means the tenon/back/dovetail saw is stronger/stiffer and thats what their function is all about, also they seem to track better too ..they also have other benefits, whether thats why they were made that way i couldnt say (egg/chicken) but tapered back saws have an efficient cut angle and when lifting the back to horizontal also assures you of not cutting beyond the line on the unseen side, which helps in not blowing out or chipping the wrong side of your timber, controled to the end of cut you might say.

Well Chips, as you say, it would be much better discussing this with a glass of somehing in our hands, but I have to follow up a couple your points.

First, I think any effect canting has on balance is mostly in our minds. They may give the impression of being lighter at the toe, but the spine is providing most of the mass, and the few grams of metal removed from the blade would be very hard to detect in anybody's hand, I think. I'd take a small bet that no-one could tell the difference between a canted & non-canted saw of the same size if blindfolded. No bet if the spine is tapered, but I haven't seen any with a tapered spine - do they exist? (I've thought about trying it, out of curiosity).

It's indisputable that if the plate is narrower at the toe, the spine can maintain stiffness a little better (which would be partially negated by tapering the spine), but if the spine/blade combination is well chosen, and the blade properly tensioned, this is probably not a major concern. However, it's a valid point, & it may have been what the person who made the first canted blade was thinking.

I think we've agreed on a couple of occasions that handle placement/grip angle are extremely important attributes of any saw, and make all the difference in the world to how good a saw feels in use. However, canting has nothing to do with these attributes, that is decided by the person making & fitting the handles & can be anything you choose, regardless of the slope or otherwhise of the back.

My suggestion about saving metal was originally made somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I really have coaxed two blades out of a scrap using an oblique cut, but these were also quite small saws, and I was looking to maximise the width of the handle end so that the cheeks of the handle wouldn't cover the whole width of the blade. That consideration would be less relevant on larger saws, and you would think that manufacturers would be able to specify sheet sizes to best suit their needs. It's not that hard to work out sizes to minimise waste (sez he, vaguely remembering something called differentiaal calculus from high-school days ).

And of course, one chooses a saw based on minimum blade width, though I have to say, I choose first on overall size & tooth pitch, and rarely does depth of cut matter, as I rarely seem to need full depth on any backsaw.

I think you are trying to find practicaal reasons for something that is really more about pleasing the eye than imparting any truly useful physical properties. I'm happy to accept that I just like the look of canted blades. I think we've also agreed that using tools that look right & feel right in the hands brings pleasure to the work, and a person who is enjoying what they are doing is far more likely to produce good work. If you're convinced that the canted blades have superior physical properties, that can only add to your satisfaction with them, but it's quite ok in my book to accept that a pleasing appearance is justification enough, even if it doesn't affect function.

Cheers,

[snafuspyramid]

I gave some more thought to finishing the handle. I've already said something about my thoughts on what I wanted it to look like - like my very old planes and braces that have been actually looked after. They have all the scratches, wear and discolouration that tells the story of their last century of life, but with the dull glow and the warmth that comes from being treated with oil and wax dozens of times and from being burnished with use. A shiny tote looks silly to me on a tool.

So I decided to give the handle another coating of Tung oil, painting it on thick and waiting for it to dry and soak in. I used undiluted Feast Watson Tung Oil, which is pure but for about 10 percent citrus thinner (which was about right here). I left it for an hour then buffed off the excess with a rag. If you tried this with BLO you'd have a nasty mess. The next day I buffed it all with a "cutting" and then "polishing" buffing wheel on my drill, then applied Renaissance Wax, then polished again. Renaissance wax is much harder than normal waxes - apparently it was developed to protect antiques, outdoor statues and the like. In my opinion it gives a good feel to a handle.

What do you think of the result?

[jimbur]

Looks good Eddie. With handles in the old days (my youth) you always seemed to have a smear of linseed oil on your hands so the handles of any tools were constantly getting a coat of raw linseed, muck and sweat giving the patina much prized today.
One way to clean saws of course is to use them.
Cheers,
Jim

[ch!ppy]

G'day Ian, drink in one hand, back saw in other, while blind folded wouldn't look strange at all to passerby s ,sounds like a good drinking game though, i'm in


tapered blade definitely feels more balanced though, if its merely the mind playing tricks because it looks more balanced that doesn't bother me at all, the end result is the same, however i would say that you could easily tell the difference the larger the back saw is (i just went out, tried a few saws and closed my eyes LOL), e.g for instance if i take two near identical tenon saws of about full length (18") one tapered the other not, the one that isnt is noticeably more tippy and unbalanced, its not just the few grams of weight that makes the difference its where it is located, on a tapered blade the weight is down lower (the significant weight of the brass back--in relation to your hand position) and where the weight is removed from is at the furtherest distance from your hand which exaggerates the weight saving (so reading specs and in actual use are two different things), pushing a non tapered blade is like driving a Pope mobile or International truck, where driving a tapered blade back saw is like driving a sports car compared (not a very fast sports car mind!)...as i said the smaller the saw gets the less it is noticeable but its still there, for small (8" or so), light, dovetail saws i'm sure many wouldn't notice the difference at all (doesn't mean its not there though but is it worth it-shrugs), for 12-14inch tenon saws its still quite apparent..you could use regular hand saws as an example as well, take two identical saws, one that is ground tapered (thickness of saw plate has been ground thinner toward to the top tip of toe as opposed to tapering width of blade-top to bottom along the length for a tenon saw) and one that hasnt, the actual weight difference (if placed on scales) would only be mere grams but it is very noticeable in actual use

in relation to depth of blade under the back, i dont know thats its the first thing i look at because i probably look at a bunch of things at the same time, probably the handle first (if thats no good i cant begin to use it comfortably no matter what), but the depth is important, i'm guessing its not particularly important to some people because they just use it for cutting dovetails perhaps, or a carcase saw for trimming the odd bit of about 20mm stock (i.e casual use), the depth of plate isnt really going to influence your saw choice much (in relation to blade depth), but many tenon and dovetail saws i use get used a great deal for other applications where the blade depth is an important consideration..for example just because a tenon saw is called a tenon saw doesnt mean thats all it gets used for, primarily its for sawing anything where it benefits in accuracy is wanted and can be used without the back interfering (i'm sure you know Ian, just mention for clarity to others reading at another time), in Australia traditionally we have always called a back saw (with a closed handle, down to about 10") a tenon saw (in some circles all back saws are tenon saws), the americans called em back saws so naturally we are also familiar with that term since we have always received backsaws from the USA as well, but mostly the term we used was tenon saw, dovetail saws the same thing, it appears to me that many people think, even if they understand the distinction of tenon saws being used for other purposes dont always recognise that dovetail saws is just a general term given to back saws with (usually) a open handle from about 10" and down, mostly these get used for other purposes as well, only a few get used for actual dovetailing (i see very few new DT saws made to the same specs of many of my actual purpose made vintage DT saws btw), i'm not sure what other countries call em but in Oz we have traditionally called all them small ones dovetail saws regardless of their actual use, while i'm talking about it we have always called the straight handled dovetail saw, aka gents saw and a heap of other names, but we always referred to that as a beading saw (which is a term i dont seem to see used at all over the internet), most of these terms originated from the UK of course but that was where we took our lead from no doubt, even though in Oz we always had that american factor as well it was usually put to one side in preference to the UK terms ifaik and was taught, with the internet and the USA huge influence over it nowadays no doubt throws all those terms onto confusion at times..

anyway my point is i'm not just 'finding' practical reasons for tapered back saws for the sake of it, they are actual practical reasons, but if i am looking like i am its because Ian, you seem to want something tangible to grasp on to (scientific) which isnt always possible or easy due to this (carpentry) being a manual art, but i am trying to put into words that you might be able to relate to...i wonder if Leonardo DaVinci, Michael Angelo or Vemeer knew in scientific terms why yellow, red and blue should be included in each painting, probably not but they still used them (just an example i'm not comparing myself to them, obviously)

i think these qualify as primary practical reasons (physical properties), some of the other points i mentioned previously perhaps secondary practical reasons,

• better tracking
• improved strength and rigidity (something i could prob expand upon, many contemporary saws are over engineered (or at least engineered differently) with thicker saw plates than whats needed or at least compared to my vintage saws, on the other-hand i know of some more modern brands that have been around since year dot that have some models that are weak and have easily distorted saw plate, a tapered back would have prob helped some of those immensely
• improved balance (#1)

all of those things just on their own equal better control, which should equate to better results, on top of that its a more pleasant experience , the latter point could be put down as subjective but i would be surprised if anyone disagreed, having said that it may for some be the most important physical & practical reason.

if i ponder it more i may be able to better explain in words in the future why these attributes, particularly the secondary reasons seem to work, generally speaking i am a more hands on teacher, for example if i'm passing on golf tips to my lads (not ness the best example!) i show first, then i move them a around bit and say, hit that, invariably that works, i dont need to (or want to) explain scientifically why it works..same thing with sawing, i show, i let them have a go, invariably it becomes apparent very quickly what works best...must say though its extremely difficult to get tapered tenon or dovetail saws nowadays, most of mine are vintage, but they still work so thats fine, when they stop working i guess i need new ones


cheers
chippy

[ch!ppy]

What do you think of the result?

i bet it feels great! perhaps the handle looks a little well dressed compared to the saw plate now, maybe. but thats just me...it was far too dry and worn to begin with though

tongue oil eh! lots of good sources for that without buying it, if you got a rock-wheeler they can produce it by the cup full or past sources were sylvester looking at tweety bird or Bogey looking at Bergman

[snafuspyramid]

tongue oil eh! lots of good sources for that without buying it, if you got a rock-wheeler they can produce it by the cup full or past sources were sylvester looking at tweety bird or Bogey looking at Bergman

Sadly I've only a beagle mutt cross thing, not large enough to produce sufficient quantities of the precious substance. Despite the expense I find it's far better than BLO, at the very least it smells a lot nicer, but it's also easier to apply. I've found that BLO needs lots of very thin coats that are removed almost as soon as they are applied, otherwise you get a nasty tacky surface. Tung oil can be allowed to sit and really fill the pores, and still buffs up nicely when you're done. Also I don't really like the darkening effect of BLO on darker timbers (I don't mind how it yellows lighter timbers though). It seems to get along with wax better, too, but that might just be my imagination.

The handle still looks pretty damn beat up, that photo makes it look nicer than it is. But still, I'm very pleased with the effect.

The next thing I have to turn my attention to is fixing that wobble. I confess I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't see how tightening the nuts further would help, since I don't think the blade is held in place just by the clamping pressure; it's where it butts against the back of the slot in the handle that it gets its rigidity, I think. I do wonder whether the fact that the blade has become canted over time has anything to do with this.

[ch!ppy]

Sadly I've only a beagle mutt cross thing, not large enough to produce sufficient quantities of the precious substance. Despite the expense I find it's far better than BLO, at the very least it smells a lot nicer, but it's also easier to apply. I've found that BLO needs lots of very thin coats that are removed almost as soon as they are applied, otherwise you get a nasty tacky surface. Tung oil can be allowed to sit and really fill the pores, and still buffs up nicely when you're done. Also I don't really like the darkening effect of BLO on darker timbers (I don't mind how it yellows lighter timbers though). It seems to get along with wax better, too, but that might just be my imagination.

The handle still looks pretty damn beat up, that photo makes it look nicer than it is. But still, I'm very pleased with the effect.

The next thing I have to turn my attention to is fixing that wobble. I confess I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't see how tightening the nuts further would help, since I don't think the blade is held in place just by the clamping pressure; it's where it butts against the back of the slot in the handle that it gets its rigidity, I think. I do wonder whether the fact that the blade has become canted over time has anything to do with this.

i like your insights to the tung oil and boiled linseed oil, cant say i like the smell of linseed oil much either (and on a slightly related side note i refuse any meal with sesame oil in it because it smells like 20w50 motor oil to me ) though i have used it for many many handles over the years, just a standard thing, no real thought gone into it, actually i used to use it on my huge cedar tilt garage door i had once which almost instantly turned it black after a while, mistakes you make when you are young! when it comes to handles i could confess that i have used vegi oil from the chip pan when i didnt have anything better to use,(thats to say couldnt be bothered buying linseed oil) and more often than that after i found it worked just fine (i recycled before it was fashionable lol), i always figured it was better to use something than nothing at all to give my tools some measure of protection, have to say shovels, spades rakes the odd saw etc etc didnt do them any harm with using leftover cooking oil..the tung oil is a good alternative for cherished saws i think

cheers
chippy

[ch!ppy]

all that talk about tongue oil i forgot to try and comment on your dilemma with tightening the handle, i guess there are many ways of addressing this...each person may have a different approach, rays comment earlier seemed pretty good too although i have never been one to want to subject old timber handles to soak in water, i get the idea though

but even though i appreciate that other factors contribute to the saw handle fitting tightly and snugly, if i had to pick one attribute that contributed most, perhaps i would have to pick clamping pressure, in conjunction with a slot width that fits the blade thickness neatly/tightly, obviously slotting the handle in terms of depth or shape is a contributor but i've had many saws that wernt perfect fits in that regard but still held firm over many years, also bolt diameter through the saw plate being snug one would expect is important but that can only be tight up to a point before you can not get things together at all, in reality many bolts have a bit of play in the saw plate...perhaps you can look and see if the slot to handle is worn (widthwise), it may well be after much use and all its years, fitting the nuts and bolts up snuggly is certainly the way to go but indeed if the, wood, in the slot is worn away you may always be up against it (you cant really force it closed much more than it wants too), perhaps it was worn away from being left and used while being in a loosened state (causing a wider slot to the handle, e.g greater than the width of saw plate) you could consider making one or two 'gaskets' the shape needed, not to be seen after installation, perhaps from wet and dry paper with the abrasive side toward the saw plate, that might be enough to give you the clamping pressure you need. hope that helps, cant say many of my saws ever get to that stage but i would be reasonably confident of that working.


cheers
chippy

[IanW]

....The next thing I have to turn my attention to is fixing that wobble. I confess I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't see how tightening the nuts further would help, since I don't think the blade is held in place just by the clamping pressure; it's where it butts against the back of the slot in the handle that it gets its rigidity, I think. I do wonder whether the fact that the blade has become canted over time has anything to do with this.

Eddie - I'm with Chippy 100% on this one - clamping pressure on the cheeks is what holds a blade, it doesn't need to "butt against the handle" at all. I also made a blunder when I looked at the picture of your saw too quickly & thought I saw a split nut - should have realised it was too young for that, but I get lots of exercise by jumping to conclusions, so let's quietly forget about split nuts.....

Ray's suggestion that your saw bolts are bottoming out, is probably right on the money. I've dealt with that, not by cutting a bit off the 'nut' side, but by shortening the bolt side. The saw bolts I 'fixed' had a shallow depth of thread in the nut side, but there was still exposed thread on the bolt when they hit bottom. So you need to check which part is the limiting factor before trimming anything. In any case, it will probably only be a mm or so that needs removing, so sneak up on it!. If you are loathe to touch your saw bolts, but want to find out if tightening the cheeks will fix the problem, stick a washer under one side & see what happens.

Chips, the way we debate things, it's just as well we aren't imbibing at the same time - we'd jaw away for hours & end up as missed as pewts & forget what we were discussing, long before the night was over!

You're probably right, my background makes me want to find all sorts of quantifiable, repeatable reasons for everything. Lets just agree, that for whatever the reaasons, we both like canted blades & both find we work better with 'em, whatever the reasons.....

Cheers,

[RayG]

Hi Ian,

Why are early backsaw blades canted...

Well we know a few things for sure...
Canted blades went out of fashion sometime between 1816 and mid 1800's pretty much all surviving backsaw examples from 1780's to early 1800's were canted to some degree..

Here's a thought, I think it's in the genes...

If you look at the history of backsaws, they evolved from the handsaw, for saws with thin blades that required stiffening (insert famous quote from Moxon) and since handsaw blades were tapered the earliest backsaws inherited the characteristic.
The feature gradually vanished in subsequent generations, I guess much like the nib vanished over generations..

A common mechanism for tool evolution is to take an existing tool and modify it to suit the need.

Regards
Ray

[IanW]

Hi Ian,

Why are early backsaw blades canted...

......Here's a thought, I think it's in the genes...

Well, there you go, seems like there's a gene for everything - I should have thought of that myself. It explains so much; slip in a few transposons, a bit of selective breeding, and the odd miscegenation (aka company takeovers) and you have a working hypothesis to explain the multitude of small saw types....

I think I'll stick with the genetic theory from now on -

Cheers,

[ch!ppy]

Hi Ray,

thats actually the same as one of the reasons i mentioned earlier, although i dont attribute it to being only done for aesthetic reasons but practical reasons...e.g. hand saws are that shape by design, it makes them stronger, if they were rectangular it makes them weaker near the handle, since they are a push saw, obviously pull saws dont have that problem. it makes sense that the back saws were tapered for the same reasons (one of them), to add strength, which it does...there are less good reasons (if function is primary) to make a tenon saw parallel but among them is ,saves some steel, easier to make and since many back saws are used for moulding, beading and put to work in miter boxes it might appear to be a waste of saw plate having it tapered, when the depth under the back (brass or steel) stiffener is parallel it fits in a miter box neatly and the full depth in front of the handle is obvious and can be used.


cheers
chippy

[snafuspyramid]

I did order some Chicago bolts in brass from LV, but since they don't list exact product dimensions I don't know whether they will fit (plus they won't arrive for another few months). In the meantime I will try and diagnose the problem with these nuts - which will have to start out with a decent cleaning of the threads. Then I'll use calipers to measure whether they have in fact "bottomed out" and will report back...

[RayG]

Hi Ray,

thats actually the same as one of the reasons i mentioned earlier, although i dont attribute it to being only done for aesthetic reasons but practical reasons...e.g. hand saws are that shape by design, it makes them stronger, if they were rectangular it makes them weaker near the handle, since they are a push saw, obviously pull saws dont have that problem. it makes sense that the back saws were tapered for the same reasons (one of them), to add strength, which it does...there are less good reasons (if function is primary) to make a tenon saw parallel but among them is ,saves some steel, easier to make and since many back saws are used for moulding, beading and put to work in miter boxes it might appear to be a waste of saw plate having it tapered, when the depth under the back (brass or steel) stiffener is parallel it fits in a miter box neatly and the full depth in front of the handle is obvious and can be used.


cheers
chippy

Hi chippy,

Yes, I think you are right on the money, I'd not thought about miter boxes, but that makes perfect sense. Also I think saw makers have never been different to any other manufacturers, they concentrate on making stuff that sells, sometimes it's not function that determines if something sells or not, but how it looks and the way they manipulate the market place to create demand for something. Woodworking tools are no exception, the amazing range of stuff that's available today, at prices that a full time professional woodworker would find hard to justify, in a business sense. How much is really needed, I sometimes wonder...

On the other end of the scale, I've seen backsaws that are being sold today with aluminium spines, plastic handles designed (?) for a 4 finger grip, and induction hardened teeth that barely cut butter, with some weird peg tooth profile, why do they bother making them?
Simple, people (who don't know better) buy them.. and then throw them away and buy a $50 circular saw... funny old world..

Regards
Ray

PS Eddie, back on topic, Leffler in West Melbourne sell Chicago screws, I was there last week and they have an amazing range of leather stuff, but I'd recommend you try and get some disston style screws off ebay, If you can't find them I've got a heap and you are welcome to some.

Ok, here's a link H Leffler & Son Pty Ltd - Catalogue

[IanW]

Eddie, I think you'll be disappointed with the Chicago bolts as a replacement for your current lot. The heads are quite small at 3/8", and will not cover the scars of the current bolts, which may or may not bother you. Their main drawback is that they are sized for a pretty precise handle thickness, and they have a very short length of (tiny) thread, so very little adjustment is possible. I use them for keyhole saws, or the saws I use to round out the inside of saw handle slots like these:

handle saws.jpg

which might give you an idea of their scale. They probbly aren't the best choice for your project, I think.

Cheers,