Restore Parker Mid Century Teak table top

[rustynail]

It doesn't look like full rotary peeled though .
They would swing a log through an arc and get longer width slices which probably gets it looking slightly more towards a peeled look . The Half round slicing in this picture. Maybe its that . The crown in that veneer looks slightly off the norm. But nowhere near as Ugly as rotary peeled.

Looking again , I think the only reason it looks slightly off the norm is the way they joined the slices at the crown part the way they did. Its just normal sliced veneer in the half round or flat slicing .

Attachment 456661

That's exactly what you are meant to think but it's not how it was laid up. As said, we supplied tons of the stuff back in the 60's and 70's. The rotary peeled section of the lay up was split through the crowns to give the arrowhead grain pattern. True sliced veneer has a much sharper edged grain pattern than rotary peeled. True sliced teak veneer has a very sharp crisp pattern, unlike the OP photos which show a wide, almost smudged grain typical of rotary peeled material. Rintoul at Seven Hill used to do the veneering.

[auscab]

That's exactly what you are meant to think but it's not how it was laid up. As said, we supplied tons of the stuff back in the 60's and 70's. The rotary peeled section of the lay up was split through the crowns to give the arrowhead grain pattern. True sliced veneer has a much sharper edged grain pattern than rotary peeled. True sliced teak veneer has a very sharp crisp pattern, unlike the OP photos which show a wide, almost smudged grain typical of rotary peeled material. Rintoul at Seven Hill used to do the veneering.

If you were there and saw it that’s good enough. I’m scratching my head thinking how could it be though .

Anything I’ve seen rotary cut is sort of a pattern of circles .

How you get to see 1/4 and crown out of rotary cut ?? .



Rob

[FenceFurniture]

I can see a clear join line in the third pic:
Teak 2.jpg


Teak 1.jpg


but I can't see any other joins at all. Wouldn't there have to be one just to the left and right of the triangle where it transitions into ¼sawn? I'm assuming that the joins would all be parallel.

[FenceFurniture]

Following on from that, it looks like flat slicing (auscab's diagram) from somewhere close to the centre of the log.

[FenceFurniture]

Think I found another join on the right.

Teak 2.jpg

[auscab]

Think I found another join on the right.

Teak 2.jpg

There are more joints here as well .Left and right of your coloured one which I also included.


Teak 1.jpg

Looks to me once again like its sliced like that below.
I don't believe its rotary . Taking back what I said before. Ill put my confidence in what I know .
Sorry rustynail .
Your either trying to BS us or just wrong .

Untitledveneer1.pngRob

[FenceFurniture]

Yes I've marked two in that pic (centre and right). Saw the one on the left and nearly marked it but wasn't sure enough, going by the pic - wasn't quite as definitive as the other two.

[rustynail]

There are more joints here as well .Left and right of your coloured one which I also included.


Teak 1.jpg

Looks to me once again like its sliced like that below.
I don't believe its rotary . Taking back what I said before. Ill put my confidence in what I know .
Sorry rustynail .
Your either trying to BS us or just wrong .

Untitledveneer1.pngRob

I can understand the confusion but take exception to be accused of BS. I supplied a lot of material to Parker Furniture during the !970's and early 80's. I know how it was laid and who by. I know who cut the veneers and I know how. I am well aware the results are for all intents and purposes indicative o of slicing but that is what made the whole process quite unique. There is absolutely no reason to rip sliced veneer through the crown centres. This is the first give away of rotary lay up. It all went even further than that. The next step was to use up the waste created by selective cutting for grain figure from rotary peeled material. This is where reconstituted veneers came into play. This was how the straight grain was made from random figured rotary peeled offcuts.
Maybe you would like to tell me thats BS also?

[auscab]

Maybe you would like to tell me that's BS also?

Well you seem very sure so maybe your not BSing just confused .

Never have I seen something that looks the same as normal cut wood that came out of something like a pencil sharpener .

Ill put it down as your possibly correct but its yet to be confirmed by me asking the next bloke I bump into coming from the veneer trade . Like next time I walk into George Feathers .

Ill let you know what they say if I get a chance to ask.



You said "I know who cut the veneers and I know how."

So Your sure of the meaning of rotary cut and that the veneer you had was that.

Here is rotary cutting in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9dzbbUbxLU

And

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rYF39D2BLU


Rob

[rustynail]

Thanks for the Youtube Vids. Takes me back. The nearest thing to what I am talking about would be the first log in the first Vid. Looks like an Indonesian Kauri. The rest are pretty much just ply filler rubbish.
As you can see there is quite a difference between the veneer produced from each log.
Now fast forward to a long grained teak log and you get a very different product. Distinct in feature and far more repetitive. Look at that first log and what feature is being produced and then imagine the bolder teak grain and you should get the picture.
The whole width of sheet can be made up of many strips, some crown cut some quartered, even reconstituted veneer can be substituted for straight grain effect.
The advantage with teak veneer in rotary form was ease of transport. As it is an imported product, efficient transportation was beneficial. Being an oily, highly flexible veneer it lent itself to tight rolling and made for good container stuffing. Unloading was quick and efficient with a carpet prong on a forklift. Loaded onto trucks like giant dunny rolls and you were good to go. No edge damage, progressively unroll and cut as required. Didn't even need a pallet to put em on. The lay up girls loved the stuff.
If I remember correctly it's Fethers not Feathers. My regards to the Old Man, if he's still knocking around the place. (Ken from Panel Board.)

[FenceFurniture]

There is absolutely no reason to rip sliced veneer through the crown centres. This is the first give away of rotary lay up.

Not sure what you mean there Ken. Do you mean they are deliberately cutting through the crown to throw a red herring? (surely not, because the general public would not be aware of any of this - even that it's veneer).

The two pieces with crown sure look like they were bookmatched or cut (ripped) for another reason (a fault?) and then staggered by about 50-60mm. Maybe just done to create a better pattern, which is less obviously bookmatched and most people would then not spot it at all?

This is where reconstituted veneers came into play. This was how the straight grain was made from random figured rotary peeled offcuts.

Is that what they are doing right at the very end of the first vid? (last 30 seconds)




To be honest, I don't think I'm any the wiser yet, so perhaps you can take us through what would be what in this pic that I marked up.

Teak 2.jpg

I can only see two definite joins in that, but Rob reckons there's another on the left (which I don't dispute).
So do we agree that there are 4 pieces in that leaf? (ignoring top left corner with lighter timber which is the tabletop proper)
From left to right:
1. skinny ~50mm on the left, showing only ¼sawn grain
2. then perhaps 200mm wide including a half crown, showing ¼sawn transitioning into back sawn (which would be a very similar effect to rotary peeling)
3. then perhaps 200mm starting with a half crown on the left of the piece, more or less same as 2. but bookmatched/reversed
4. then a piece of unknown width on the right of the pic, showing only ¼sawn grain

Or, do you (Ken) say that there are either more strips than the 4, or that they are reconstituted, or summink else?

If 2 & 3 are as I described above (crown to ¼) then I can't for the life of me see how that can be done from rotary peeling, because it can never yield ¼sawn grain. (unless I'm missing something....)

[FenceFurniture]

Here is a pic of a full rotary peeled veneer (courtesy groeneaj from another thread).
You can see that there is no ¼sawn grain showing at all.
Looks to be all one piece with no joins.

Rotary peeled.jpg

[rustynail]

OK. Lets try and explain the unexplainable. Firstly, just let me say there is a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to veneering. Many different techniques have been tried with some being more successful than others. The 70's was a very progressive period for timber technology.
A great time for a young fella with broad horizons. I loved it.
We are trying to study a series of pictures a lot smaller than the subject. It is hard enough to find the joins on a full size sheet if it has been laid up properly. The next question is are the joins we are looking at actual veneer joins or is the substrate also joined? Makes quite a difference to what the full sheets would have looked like prior to cutting. The next question is it three layer board or five layer? If five, it is definitely nothing to do with me and was probably laid and supplied by Brimms. Either way, it is obvious the pattern is made up of strips. How many? Your guess is as good as mine. But what it does show is that they have been laid up in a format to resemble slicing. As you can see from the vids there is no limit to width when it comes to rotary peeling so the curtain can be cut anywhere at any stage. Teak produces quite a regular pattern even when peeled. The crown sections are quite oval compared to the sharp, pointed arrow heads of the crowned sliced veneer. To overcome this the curtain is cut through the centre of the oval crowns and the piece removed would then go into reconstituted veneer billets. Now when the edges are brought together we have a much more distinct, sharp arrow feature, more like sliced but showing quite a bold pattern compared to the standard tall and thin lipped pattern that comes from slicing teak. The offcut strips are glued and stacked to a selected height and pressed. The billets are then sawn so the edges of the stacked veneers becomes the face. Another option was slice the cores for the straight grain effect on each side of the figured piece. These cores used to be of considerable size due to the large diameter of the log turning centres. The great advantage with rotary was the speed of production and the ease of handling the finished product. As this was an imported specie there was a need to find handling solutions. Flat stacked veneers required protection during transport. We just rerolled the log. Moved em about with a carpet prong on a forklift, set the roll in a roll rack and the lay up girls could just feed it out over the cutting bench as they needed it.
So, what the finished product would consist of was a series of two piece crown sections interspersed by straight grained strips in equal quantity on either side so as to fool Mr FF and Co into thinking it was the real deal.
After all, the purpose of veneer was to stretch a limited resource as far as possible. This was just another attemped at a bit more stretch at a cheaper price.

[auscab]

Thanks for a great explanation rustynail!

I take back the BS or wrong thing I said about you .

I Just learnt something new.

Rob

[rustynail]

Damn! And here I was all set to sue you for that posh work bench you made.