Usa....usa

[Big Shed]

Thanks for those explanations Bob and Joe. So, perhaps there is something to be said for the British parliamentary system after all, sort of an apprentice system.

What I do like about the US system is that Ministers, or Secretaries, don't have to be members of parliament, ie that raises the average IQ of the cabinet immediately.

[jerryc]

Jerry, I think the brat teenager was only the last half of the 20th century. In WW2, America (with all our faults) was regarded as the Arsenal of Democracy. I'm pretty much fed up with the 21st so far. I guess you know the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

Joe the Laboratory Rat

Joe, One of the reasons I sited the treatment of the Nez Pierce Indians was to show this inbuilt urge to punish anyone stands against "America" extended well back into the past. Australia and England, my previous homeland are historically guilty of atrocities too but not in the same way.

Was McCarthyism part of American democracy? Who gave America that title and what did it actually mean? Ambassador Kennedy was no friend of the UK when it stood alone against Nazi Germany. London, Coventry and Plymouth were being bombed constantly, I know because I was in London during that time. Kennedy urged America not to become involved in the conflict. Rooseveldt had great trouble in giving any aid to the British war effort at a critical juncture of the Second World War. Six antiquated destroyers, known scathingly to the British Navy as "The Four Funnelled Flivvers" were traded in return for American bases in Britain. Beggars could not be choosers. America was an arsenal during the Second World War which was good for the American economy.
Yes I know the Chinese curse. Refer to my previous entry.
Jerry

[Master Splinter]

Did I hear guns, god and America? Try election night at the Hoffman household...

"http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=330731"

[Honorary Bloke]

Every country has an embedded element of culture. Louis Hartz' "fragment theory" maintained that newly settled countries contained fragments of the original culture of the parent country at the time of settlement. I go further and say that the original country maintains a core of it's culture. China has always held to a view of harmony in all things and Mao's outbreak quickly died . China is not perfect but it is not so imperialistic as America.
America has always fought on the pattern of the Indian Wars. Create a fort into which you retreat each night (Green Zone) and come out during the day to pacify the natives. Everyone who disagrees with you must be punished. Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and Iran have all defeated America in some way however much McCain might like to re write history and each has been punished if it was in America's power to do so.
It is that unity of purpose as much as the vast number of people that will make the dragon such a force to be reckoned with.
There is a great deal of Chinese money propping up the USA at present. But for how long?
We live in interesting times.

Jerry

Oh dear. And I know better than to get into this. Sigh.

A couple of points:

Even if you accept Hartz's theory, your further statement that "the original country maintains a core of it's culture" seems to me to be a non-sequitur. Are you then saying that The United States is the "original" country? But we are not--that was Great Britain. So perhaps the fragment we are holding is the legacy of our British origins. If so, then the primal urge to be imperialists, which you assert we are, must be an inherited trait honestly come by. Certainly Great Britain led the way in imperialist conquest, including the founding of the 13 American colonies.

When you assert that "America has always fought on the pattern of the Indian Wars" you are confusing military theory with the social fabric. When your troops must be protected from guerrillas, you enclose them in a fortress and use sorties as your primary tactic, whether it is the old western frontier or Vietnam, or Iraq. If the enemy is well-defined ethnically and geographically, the fighting is able to be conducted more along the lines of WWII, with general advances and retreats along fluid fronts. We built no forts in WWII or Korea and there were no defined fronts in Vietnam.

I agree that Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea and Iran have all defeated America in some way. We have normalised relations with Vietnam. North Korea punishes itself worse than anyone else. Iran is a product of our own bungling when the Shah was in power. And Cuba is an anomaly with which I believe we are dealing poorly. But they are all different, not, as you imply, all the same.

As for an earlier post regarding Ambassador Kennedy and the difficulty with early Lend-Lease efforts, the context (which was omitted) was that it occurred within a strong American political climate of isolationism. We had intervened in WW I and it seemed to many that "tired old Europe," as it was often characterised, simply could not stop squabbling. Perhaps we believed Neville Chamberlain when he trumpeted "peace in our time."

I know that Neil will only tolerate so much political debate, but I simply wanted to make it clear that there are two (or more) sides to the issues.

[jerryc]

Bob,
You place me in a dilemma. You have raised several points that I would dearly love to discuss for, as you say, there are always two side to any issue.
The dilemma is twofold. Will Neil or his moderator allow the discussion to continue.?Equally important is will the membership allow it or think it too self indulgent?

As I have said in a previous thread, discussion, providing it doesn't get personal and is approached with an open mind, can help with understanding.

So I ask members and Neil can we continue?

By the way I like the Adams quote.

Jerry

[JMB]

Well, I am finding this thread very interesting, and am relieved that the discussion has not become heated and divisive [so far].

[m2c1Iw]

Well, I am finding this thread very interesting, and am relieved that the discussion has not become heated and divisive [so far].

I started this thread to congtratulate our American friends on demonstrating to the world that the democratic process is alive and well.

I too have found the dicussion interesting and hope it continues without denigrating the American social fabric or becoming personal.

Regards
Mike

[masoth]

"By the way I like the Adams quote." as stated by Jerry, and I'd like to support this thread too. Understandiing the system of any other country is of interest to me - there are, no doubt, some that will complain but, surely, they can simply ignore this thread - can't they?
I'm away for two days and look forward in anticipation of more contributions . Please let it continue Mods.

[pugwash]

Lighten up guys.
I always knew there would be a black president one day.
But somehow I thought it would be Morgan Freeman.

[Honorary Bloke]

Bob,
You place me in a dilemma. You have raised several points that I would dearly love to discuss for, as you say, there are always two side to any issue.
The dilemma is twofold. Will Neil or his moderator allow the discussion to continue.?Equally important is will the membership allow it or think it too self indulgent?

I am of the same mind. But of course it is now late over here, so i shall look in in the (my) morning and see how it goes. Meanwhile, Jerry, give it a go. The worst that can happen is not so bad.

[BTW, I will not and do not intend for this to be anything but civil. Jerry has been, as will I. Any who want to post otherwise should open their own thread. ]

[jerryc]

Thanks for the support. Now we can continue to thunder righteously against each other's point of view.

Pugwash. You ask us to lighten up. My tongue in cheek response is Roger, the cabin boy.

Jerry

[RETIRED]

The Admins have no problem with political debate providing that it:

Does not get personal and heated between 2 parties. Play the idea not the man.

Does not denigrate a leader, government or country for their political, religious or legal system. E.g. XYZ is a lying thieving rock spider is not acceptable.

If any of the above happens it will be dealt with swiftly.

In other words go for it but keep it nice.

[AlexS]

Thanks . This is an interesting debate, being conducted in a gentlemanly manner.

[joe greiner]

Thanks . This is an interesting debate, being conducted in a gentlemanly manner.

And more politely than our own political campaigns, which reached a crescendo of BS masquerading as "facts."

Joe

[Honorary Bloke]

OK Jerry (and any others) go for your life.