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5th June 2013, 08:13 AM #16Senior Member
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- Jun 2007
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- Austin, TX
- Posts
- 155
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6th June 2013, 11:56 AM #17
Neil
Thank you for starting up this thread, which to my shame I have only just seen, particularly as it was partly at my behest.
I starting to appreciate the finer points, but in a way what I find most intriguing is that it may have opened up a whole new minefield (sorry ).
I have visions now of woodworkers everywhere (including myself) busily scavenging the countryside for suitable stone. This is in a way not so revolutionary as even as a child I remember sharpening an axe on a piece of sandstone we had in the yard. I am visiting my daughter tomorrow for her birthday and will take the opportunity to quiz her on the subject of rocks seeing how she studied geoscience at Uni.
I don't think this thread has run it's course and I eagerly await further input.
Thanks again Neil and the rest of you who have contributed.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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7th June 2013, 11:45 AM #18
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7th June 2013, 04:47 PM #19
If anyone is interested enough to read up on the geology of the Kyoto stones, here's So-san's write up on the origins of the Naturally occurring Kyoto waterstones.
Maybe a unique set of circumstances. Not so much the laying down of the original sedimentary material, that was widespread throughout the oceans on earth back then. But the conveyor belt provided by continental drift that delivered it to to Japan (one of the most active geological hot-spots - viz. earth quakes and tsunami) and which then thrust up what was originally ocean floor to form current day Mt Atago, may not be replicated elsewhere.
The other serendipity is a bit like the porridge in the three bears; not too hot, not too cold. Not too much clay, not too little. If the sediments are subject to too much pressure they get cook too hard, not enough pressure and it just weathers away like clay.
However, we can keep looking, just in case the right set of circumstances has come together somewhere else.
What we are looking for is radiolarian chert.
If you are interested in the nitty-gritty geological details, see here. I expect most of those identified occurrences will be too hard for our purposes. But, maybe not.
And, what does it look like, like this. But not that wavy stuff, we want nice flat layers!
Hard to please, aren't we.
Happy hunting.
Neil
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7th June 2013, 06:42 PM #20Senior Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
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- Sydney
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- 103
Hi NeilS,
I promised to post some images of a blade sharpened with one of my stones and the suita.
Attached is an image of the same blade sharpened with a King 6000, one of my Native stones and the Suita.
The Suita is amazing compared to the others, which shows I have more work to do. On the other hand the native stone is not that far behind. For this test I used a stone which cuts almost as well as the suita but is not at fine. I have other stones which are finer but don't cut as well. The suita has it all!
Stone comparison.JPG
Regards,
Gadge
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8th June 2013, 02:40 AM #21
Alex Gilmore also has some really interesting information on natural Japanese stone on his Blog (found on his site:index). He also has some very nice stones for sale.
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8th June 2013, 01:17 PM #22
Gadge
Many thanks for taking and sharing those very interesting mag images.
Your images clearly illustrate just how different the abrasive patterns are off a #6000 (or #8000) synthetic compared to your native natural (about #4000-8000), and off your high end natural (#15,000 - 20,000+). The synthetic leaves deep angular abrasions, the local natural in about the same grit range leaves shallow more rounded abrasions, and the top end natural leaves a fine even surface of shallow short abrasions.
As your local natural has good cutting strength it is an ideal stone to use before your Suita. It is not going to leave deep angular abrasions that have to be removed by your expensive Suita. I would be inclined to try eliminating the #6000 synthetic from your sharpening sequence and go straight from a #2000 synthetic to your local natural and then on to your Suita, or if just touching up an edge, eliminate the synthetics all together.
I think you are on a winner there, Gadge.
Sheets - thanks for the reference to Alex Gilmore's website. I consider So-san (Japan Tool) and Alex-san as the most authoritative English language sources of advice on, and sale of, J-naturals. Given that we are fortunate to have So here in Australia, with the backing of his father (a tennen toishi 'guru') in Japan, I have tended to deal with So-san, but acknowledge the soundness of Alex's advice and product. His blog entry on A little bit about color stones and stratas, is very readable.
Neil
PS - Getting advice and buying from So-san is only for the patient, but the reward is there in the end. Having had no interactions with Alex, I can't comment there.
PPS - I have given up on a well known eBay seller of J-nats, and he has given up on me, after returning a stone that I thought had been incorrectly graded. I was never refunded, despite repeated attempts to communicate on this. I only deal now with sellers that have statements like the following:
Also I want you to feel that buying an expensive stone over the
Internet does not have to include "taking a chance" or on "getting a
dud". My goal is for you to be happy with your purchase. I will work
with you to find a stone that suits your needs. Any stone purchased
from the website here comes with a money back guarantee of
satisfaction. - Alex
...natural stones require much personal assistance for the right stone to land in the right hand...
It is ideal if I can personally consult with each users, interviewing the needs and preferences to decide what stone to offer, but as this takes so much time, unfortunately I cannot do this for too many people at one time.
... when you buy expensive stones, make sure the seller accept returns when you don't like it. You'll never know whether the stone will suit you and your tools until you use them. In Japan, skilled users never buy expensive stones without trying them (except for when buying from someone they can trust.) I and my father always check the quality before selling, so I am pretty sure you'd be satisfied with the quality, but if you don't like them I accept returns for expensive stones. - So
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8th June 2013, 01:48 PM #23Senior Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Sydney
- Posts
- 103
Hi NeiS,
Thanks for the feedback. I put the 6000 synthetic in just as a comparison. I don't use it in my normal sharpening sequence. I have Native stones at somewhere between 1000 and 6000 which I use straight off the diamond stone. I then use the stone I showed in the images. If I want a very fine edge I then go onto my finest finishing stone which I did not show in the photos (in retrospect I should have included it). I don't bother with the suita. I only use it for comparisons.
In summary I use a blue DMT Whetstone (course), then 2 or 3 of my native stones.
I love the self-sufficiency of using my own stones. I also like to tie my own trout flies and make my own knives but that's another story.
Regards,
Gadge
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9th June 2013, 07:37 PM #24Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
- Location
- Austin, TX
- Posts
- 155
I've found that the effectiveness of natural stones is more reliant on the metal involved than on a particular stone. When Mori was alive, we were encouraged to visit with metal in hand when shopping for stones; which was a little difficult from a 2k mile distance, but still... Now, not so much, although Alex probably will take returns, even though s&h often gets very expensive when sending rocks around the world.
However, I never seemed to be able to develop a defined process with the naturals; so I recently bought a Sigma ceramic set. We'll see how that goes.
Pam
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10th June 2013, 11:18 AM #25
Pam - I (and I'm sure others) would be interested in your observations on that.
Yep, and heavy tools, like axes and adz (chouna). But so far I haven't had to send any of those back...
Will be interested to hear how you go with them. I still prefer to use the Sigmas (SII) for lower grit work.
And, if you decide to off load any of your naturals, I may be interested in any softer superfines for my kitchen knives...
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10th June 2013, 11:15 PM #26
Have you ever wondered why I will not touch natural stones?
It's because of what's written above.
I think it can be done properly over the interweb, but there's no chance doing so is going to reduce the time, effort and cost involved in the process.
(And everyone's looking for a deal. After all, I'm in Japan so can get them cheap, right?)
It's not because I can't get them, and it's not because I can't learn about them, it's just that I do not have the temerity to deal with them properly, so it's best to stay away for me at the moment.
Stu.
(Who's got standing offers from not one, or two, but 5 different folks to be 'schooled' on natural stones. 3 of them are merely spirited amateurs. 2 of them, you don't want to know how far up the food chain they are...)
P.S. Neil, I know who you're talking about. I met him once. I think it best to be diplomatic here and tell you only that which I have already told you.
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11th June 2013, 01:17 PM #27Senior Member
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- Jun 2007
- Location
- Austin, TX
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- 155
Perhaps the best place to start reading about this metal/wood/stone relationship may be with daiku05353 (Scott) on the old Hiraide forum, Japanese Woodworking Forums • View forum - Tool Sharpening It's a long and often tumultuous thread, but informative. Among other things, apparently I irritated Scott quite a bit and got told off for it (this is from memory, haven't reread the entire thread for some years); but I still think it would have been a better learning experience if he'd given us some hints about which stones we could buy so we could work along with him, vs just sitting there and listening ad nauseum. I think his process was more or less perfect for in person learning. I also have to add that some of these guys just hate women who mess in "their" business.
Pam
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11th June 2013, 08:00 PM #28
I speculated as much, but am grateful that you have concentrated on the man-mades; providing much needed impartial and informed reviews, expert advice and comprehensive product.
Apropos - I know this thread is on naturals, but if anyone hasn't read the following blogs by Stu on some of the well known man-mades, I can recommend them.
Neil
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11th June 2013, 09:38 PM #29
Thank you Neil for posting those links. I nearly missed tea I was so engrossed in Stu's testing. May I put up this link to Stu as well, which i got from your two links:
Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.
In fact my impression is that the testing is not over yet. However it is really very time consuming so I can quite see why it is arriving in installments.
For some time I have meant to send a PM to Stu complimenting him on his website, his knowledge and perhaps most importantly his willingness to share these things with us.
For some reason I have not done that, so I would like to remedy that situation and compliment him here in front of everyone on the Forums.
Just fantastic Stu .
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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11th June 2013, 09:46 PM #30
I would also go on to say the old phrase "horses for courses" comes to mind. Clearly "stones are not necessarily stones." That's the end of my cliches, but although I have picked up a heap of knowledge I am now aware of how little I know.
Keep it coming gentlemen; Please.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"