Useless Certifier

[bitingmidge]

People keep suggesting that we knew about the overland flow and simply decided not to tell the certifier.

I apologise for any inference that it was deliberate, but you opened with six guns blazing looking for someone to blame!

THE FIRST TIME WE'D EVER HEARD THE TERM OVERLAND FLOW WAS WHEN THE BUILD OVER STORMWATER APPLICATION WAS REJECTED.

So again I ask, if you are looking for someone to blame, why not look in the direction of the solicitor who did the searches when you bought??

Or did you do your own conveyancing?

If we'd have been advised of its existance by our solicitor or our architect then of course we'd have told the certifier.

In your first post, you said your certifier hadn't told your architect, now you are suggesting your architect should have told you? The chain of information is not clear, and could be one reason why no one found the problem earlier.

From what I can gather this should have been picked up in the first instance by the solicitor when he was doing the conveyancing, by the architect when he visited the site, and then by the certifier before he submitted the plans to council and we should have been advised accordingly before spending our money.

You are close to the mark, although I am still not sure why the certifier would have had access to the project before the designs were prepared, unless you engaged him to do the searches to brief your architect?

I'd certainly be asking the solicitor why he didn't do the search, or draw your attention to this, as at purchase time it's an issue which can seriously devalue your property, and you should have been made aware then.

The fact that we havn't been advised at any stage by anyone doesn't make it our fault.

Well that's where we differ I'm afraid. If you are running the project, then you do require a certain amount of expertise. As you have just discovered quite painfully, it pays to know what questions to ask, as sometimes if they go unasked, things go awry.

If this is what I can expect in the future from all trades people I'd probably be best doing a course in law, design, certifying, carpentry, plumbing, roofing, electricals, aircon, kitchen fitting, tiling, landscape gardening, concreting, etc, etc, etc.... as it appears that no one is willing to accept responsibility for their work and I could obviously do a better job myself.

That's pretty much what you have to do to be a builder, and that's why, if you read numbers of other owner building threads, so many experienced people advise against it. If anyone could be a builder, there'd be no need for all that legislation.

The Building Services Act ensures that the builder is responsible for the work of ALL those trades as well, and that's why you'll get little assistance from the QBSA as an owner builder. You are expected to have a basic knowledge of the process I'm afraid. No one is there to pick up the pieces if you don't properly manage the process.

If this is what being an owner builder means then how far does it go.... Do I need to forge my own nails????

No, but you need to know what alloy they need to be made of for differing situations! Don't think that every subbie is out to rob you, but at the same time be aware that not everyone won't cut corners if they aren't being expertly supervised either!

I think on reflection that I've just been unlucky. Reading posts on this Forum gives me some hope that not everyone in Australia wears a ten gallon hat and chaps.

Perhaps you have been unlucky, but remember, most people make their own luck!
Even people who aren't dressed to round up cattle make mistakes occasionally, and the job of the supervisor, in this case you, is to pick them up before they do any harm.

Let's go back to your first post, where you thought your only option was a claim against the certifier. That didn't sound like someone trying to solve a problem. There were at least three other options:

A claim against your solicitor, to cover the costs of the aborted work and probably for the devaluation of your property if you want to get all gung-ho.

A claim against your "architect", which if you think about it and he really is culpable, you could solve by getting him to redo the work properly at no cost.

Ditto for the Building Surveyor.

You've lost a bit of time, but if the house can fit, you've got off lightly. What if it couldn't???

IF you are going to keep the "blame" thing happening for the whole project, it's going to be a long battle.

Cheers,

P

[Ian Smith]

Tobydogger, the reason that people keep suggesting you knew about the situation is that you said:

The fact that the property was in an overland flow area will obviously have been in the details provided to our solicitor when we purchased the property but that didn't really make a difference to our decision to purchase, as the property is in the street we have been waiting to buy in. Furthermore, as it is such a good location, we are willing to build a house to fit the block rather than buying a block to fit our house.

????

Ian

[Sir Stinkalot]

I have just written a long response but what it really boils down to is who is responsible. The only way to determine this is for tobydogger to outline the steps involved, including who was engaged, by whom and at what stages.

With this information it would be possible to determine who may be at fault.

[Rossluck]

You get this type of response, Toby, when you use this forum to let off a bit of steam. Don't take it personally; they mean well.

What I'm interested in knowing is what changes need to be made to the design of your house in an overland flow area?

[tobydogger]

Tobydogger, the reason that people keep suggesting you knew about the situation is that you said:

The fact that the property was in an overland flow area will obviously have been in the details provided to our solicitor when we purchased the property but that didn't really make a difference to our decision to purchase, as the property is in the street we have been waiting to buy in. Furthermore, as it is such a good location, we are willing to build a house to fit the block rather than buying a block to fit our house.


????

Ian

Ian - You are assuming that the solicitor told us about the overland flow. That argument forms the basis of this post...

Sir Stink - Top advice. Now the dust has settled and everyone is back from their holidays we'll be getting to the bottiom of this over the next couple of weeks.

Ross - As the original plans were for a two level home with living accom on the ground floor they will all have to be more or less scrapped.

Midge - As they say in France "you appear to know your onions!" The fact is I earn my living doing what I do and as such I would prefer to pay trades people to do the things they do best (electrics, carpentry, plumbing, etc). The fundimental point here is that if I decide to pay a licenced carpenter to construct a studwall for me and I subsiquently find out that he has decided to cut corners by using balsa wood instead of the correct timber, I expect him to accept responsibility for his shoddy workmanship - providing I find out of course!!!!

[bitingmidge]

Midge - As they say in France "you appear to know your onions!" The fact is I earn my living doing what I do and as such I would prefer to pay trades people to do the things they do best (electrics, carpentry, plumbing, etc). The fundimental point here is that if I decide to pay a licenced carpenter to construct a studwall for me and I subsiquently find out that he has decided to cut corners by using balsa wood instead of the correct timber, I expect him to accept responsibility for his shoddy workmanship - providing I find out of course!!!!

I've eaten a few onions in my time!

By all means expect your trades guys to accept responsibility, and expect to get stuff built properly (it does happen mostly btw!). Just remember who has responsibility for SUPERVISION and SPECIFICATION of the work.

So have you spoken with the Solicitor yet? I'd really like to know what possible reason they can give for inadequate searches.

Cheers,
P

[Sir Stinkalot]

So have you spoken with the Solicitor yet? I'd really like to know what possible reason they can give for inadequate searches.

I too would be interested in the outcome. I, and I am sure other members would be willing to offer advise which may be of assistance however without all of the facts, eg who engaged / briefed who, it is all speculation and will be of no use.

I have tried to trace the line of responsibility and I have a good idea where it may lay ..... however that is assuming that everything is done as per the standard arangements. But by reading the first post again and noticing the frustration directed towards the certifier then it may suggest that the regular steps / procedures may not have been followed.

Toby ..... if you posted this to let of steam so be it ...... if you wanted some advise (good and perhaps not so good after all it is a public forum) then outline the facts from day one and you will get some educated responses.

[TEEJAY]

Toby, by all accounts your upper floor may well be close to what you are after the lower floor must be non-habitable and you can then use it in a fashion where anything of value can be moved to higher ground ie upper floor if you flood.

We used to put on the lower floor (back in the days when I did house plans - and thank God don't anymore) garage, laundry etc and people used them for rumpus and family open living areas including billiard rooms etc but ensured these regions were vacatable if need be. A workshop can have a sink and wow it looks just like a kitchen

Pehaps your changes are not so big?

Obviously you don't do brick veneer lower floor but cavity brick or similar etc etc. Tiles on the floor etc etc.

[bitingmidge]

Teejay,

NOTHING goes in an overland flow path, not even battens!

Cheers,

P

[DvdHntr]

I feel it is the responsibility of the project manager to inform the person drawing up the plans of issues such as this. Having said that an architect really should check before they commence that there are no issues that could inhibit the structure, the same as building heights and the like.

[TEEJAY]

Teejay,

NOTHING goes in an overland flow path, not even battens!

Cheers,

P

On "open flow" you can build nothing that reduces the flow of water - hence you can build a home but up on piers with no walls under??

Open carport - no laundry??

Or are you saying absolutely NOTHING goes there including piers?

So infact what they have is a reduced building block footprint for the house to fit upon?

[bitingmidge]

Piers are ok, no cupoards, tubs, battens, fencing or anything that will restrict the flow.

Overland flow is a designated open drain basically for use when the stormwater drain below it is in overflow, so they want to get rid of big heaps of water very quickly.

Nifty eh?

Of course they can't stop you parking your old bus there!

cheers,

P

[thebuildingsurv]

I blame the architect first, what is the point of hime preparing a design if the relevant property information has not been sought, why start designing before you are aware of the limitations. I see this happen all to often in flooding areas. Once you raise a floor all walls on the bpundaries etc are suddenly to high.

I am not familar with processes in queensland, however, I imaguine you would have had to pay the building surveyor fees on application, and part of his job is to check these things out, so whether it was picked up just after you lodged it or later when the build over the easement was applied for it does not make much difference.

These things happen often and you may have some luck if you take it to a small claims tribunal, but it will bring on a lot of stress and in the end a big headache. Hit the architect up for free amended plans and the building surveyor to re-asses the new plans for free and be on your way.

Probably your main greif is that you cant build on the block what you want, that is neither of their faults.

It is a setback but you should (hindsight is a good thing) find out all info about a block before you buy it. The info about flooding would be as readily avaible to you as the architect and building surveyor.

[TEEJAY]

How much off the ground does it have to be in this case to comply?

[bitingmidge]

It has to be clear of the overland flow path, so in this case, ie, above the Q100 flood level so we can't say!

The worst case I've seen was over three metres!

It MAY be just a corner of the building and a few hundred mm??

Cheers,

P