Saw sharpening files 101

[Claw Hama]

For a bit of general purpose sharpening I'm still happy to use the Swiss Grobs from LV or LN or the Liogiers are still standing up ok
at the moment as well. If you are filing day in and day out like some of the saw makers and filing a whole tooth then these may not cut the mustard. Also depends on the steel in the saws you are sharpening, some of the early 1900's are pretty hard but much of the later saws after the war etc are not so bad I don't think. Again depends on brand etc etc.

So any feedback on the cd FF ??

[pmcgee]

Which do you want to sharpen first? Large teeth or small?

I suggest any time you want to start TODAY ... find some Nicholsons at a hardware.

FF can tell you how many days away by post the other options might be, I'm guessing.

Even a $4 6" supercraft is 7mm on a side, so if I calculate correctly = 7tpi = 8ppi.
Used lightly I'm sure it would do a handsaw.
For heavy rehab - I'd grab three, just in case.

If they are poor files, then you will better appreciate the better ones ... or find they are more expensive and still bad.
If they work more than ok ... Bonus.

Cheers,
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

15 tpi gents (like the veritas gents, but only about 150mm long)
14 tpi dovetail 3.8mm so a 4mm face needle file (because a good 4mm face 100mm long DEST can't be located for sure)
13 tpi backed (bit bigger than dovetail) As above should work ok, but a 5mm face 125mm long DEST may well be ok if the edges are good and sharp
7 tpi crosscut (has set) File face 7.6mm so an 200mm DEST (not too sure these exist) or a 150mm EST
5 1/2 tpi with set (another crosscut?) File face 9.7mm so an 200mm ESTor a 175mm ST
16 tpi Bowsaw (IanW's blade) As for the 14tpi
2 tpi disston (715mm length), that's loads of fun to use! File face 26mm so an 300mm RT**

Ok, using the formula
File width = 25.4 / tpi X 2.1 you'd need the file widths as shown above. The lengths are optional to a great extent, as it's the corner sharpness that counts, particularly in the finer saws. It looks like you have measured them as tpi (as you said) because a 2 ppi is the same as a 1 tpi and that would be a MONSTER!

**A 300mm Regular Taper has a face width of 23mm, and I haven't found anything bigger, so there will be a line down the middle of the file face 2=3mm wide that will get used twice. That just means the file won't last quite as long - it can still do the job.

I'll check all that through again in the morning, and be in touch.

[FenceFurniture]

So any feedback on the cd FF ??

Yes, it was really really good Mark. He explains things very simply.

[IanW]

Ok...I've got:

15 tpi gents (like the veritas gents, but only about 150mm long)
14 tpi dovetail
13 tpi backed (bit bigger than dovetail)
7 tpi crosscut (has set)
5 1/2 tpi with set (another crosscut?)
16 tpi Bowsaw (IanW's blade)
2 tpi disston (715mm length), that's loads of fun to use!

Also a bunch of Japanese saws, but they're all disposable blades.

John - for anything 14 tpi and finer, I recommend the equivalent of a (decent) 4" DEST. The bowsaw blade was sharpened with a 150mm #4 needle file from Australian Jewellers Supplies (in all capital cities, but have a website & will post). I have been using the needle files on everything from 15 tpi & smaller, because they are of decent quality, and the corner radii are consistent.

The tables of sizes for the various pitches on the Lie Nielsen website is as good a guide as any. Files for the larger sized teeth are not a big problem, and for occasional use, any of the 'better' brands will work, though some better than others, it would seem. Much of the preceding discussion has been around the files for fine-toothed saws, because here you need pretty sharp corners in order to get gullets in proportion to the size of the teeth. Corner radius seems to have become a highly variable feast in the last decade or so, and that is the main reason I use the needle files - they are sufficiently fine and consistent!

I doubt you will get any joy trying to sharpen your Japanese saws. Quite apart from their teeth being more complex than on 'western' saws, if they are disposable' blades, the teeth will be impulse-hardened, & no regular file will touch them.......

Cheers,

[FenceFurniture]

Maybe this will simplify things for those just want to know which file for which tpi.

This table is based on the Liogier sizes (because they are the ones I have a complete chart of). At this time, they do not produce a 100mm Double Extra Slim.




NOTE: Where two files have the same face width, but are longer, the difference is the number of teeth per centimetre on the file. This should not make much difference as the tpc counts are not that different. It is the corner radius that is most important.

[Girius]

HeY
Just a quicky and excuse me if I have missed the answer somewhere in this thread.
Why do you beleive that the F Dick files are made by Grobet?

Maybe not just you John - it got a bit detailed for a while there. The summary attachment at post #169 might make it a bit clearer.

The bottom line appears to be this, based upon the opinions of the people who responded to my survey: the only brands that are widely recognised as "what I/they would buy" are Pferd, Bahco, and maybe F.Dick (which I believe are going to be Grobets rebadged - and Grobet Swiss are deemed to hard/brittle so the corners snap teeth off, Grobet "elsewhere" are too soft). Other than that, for small teeth, there is that Japanese jobbie from Glen Drake (I have a couple on the way).

What size teeth (tpi or ppi) will you be needing to file?

[FenceFurniture]

2 tpi disston (715mm length), that's loads of fun to use!

Hey John, any chance of a pic of this big sucker?

[FenceFurniture]

HeY
Just a quicky and excuse me if I have missed the answer somewhere in this thread.
Why do you beleive that the F Dick files are made by Grobet?

Various people "in the know" have told me that F.dick stopped making their own files in 1996 or thereabouts, and that they are now rebadged Vallorbes. Vallorbe don't market their own taper files, they are sold as Grobet, and the two companies have some kind of very close relationship - one owns the other.

Furthermore, Vallorbe have a range of Titan coated files - so does F.Dick.

I'll know more when my Dick Files arrive in the next week (I hope) and when I have some Grobet equivalents to compare them with.

I am assembling a bunch of files from suppliers all over the world, and will be sending them out to a couple of testes. They will have the stamps ground off so that it is a totally blind test. A couple of them will be chemically sharpened with Citric Acid first (by me) to see if there is any truth to the rumour.

The brands will include:
F.Dick
Grobet (Swiss made, not "elsewhere")
Bahco
Pferd
Liogier
the Japanese jobbie from Glen Drake (which will be impossible to disguise, as it's not tapered)

and the files will be 4", 5", 6" DEST a maybe a couple of other larger ones (from only one brand - this is getting very expensive).

[Girius]

OK.. Thanks for that.
Yeah I know that F Dick stopped making files. (Knife mainly now) There is a lot of info on their website.

I look forward for your test. The proof will be in the pudding.
As soon as your results are in, I will be ordering a few sets of the winners. Got a bunch of saws that need to be sharpened.

Girius

[chambezio]

I did a little "study tour" in Tamworth the other day just to satisfy myself that there was no real descent files to be had. I picked up a 6"/150 Pfert saw file from one place. They had a very modest display with only a cursory collection in the display.Went to another place, they had Bahcos but only in sets(And nothing suitable in the sets. He suggested another place (Where I do most of my buying) but I told him they only have Nicholsons and that they were rubbish for saws, he immediately agreed.
When I got home I didn't feel like having to file a 26' Hand Saw so I got out a blade off my Multimaster Fein Saw. I have filed these in the past although the steel is really hard and the teeth really small. I used a diamond needle file from a set I bought at the Brissy show. As I was filing I thought Wow these diamond covered needle files are great as there was not complaint from the file as I pushed it over the blade. I had to use my "bincular" magnifiers to inspect what I had done.....Absolutely nuthin!!!! The diamond needle file just polished the gullet a bit. So same old saying......"yer gets what yer pay for" country of origin?....yep you guessed it.
I will have to try one of those jewelers supply needle files that IanW uses

When I tickle up the hand saw I will report back with the performance

[pmcgee]

I'm finding this topic increasingly difficult to follow...I don't know anything about saw files & I need to buy some, soon. But this is kinda difficult when the guys in the know keep confusing us! Is it just me?

Maybe there should be a separate summary thread started with only the staticly concluded elements of this fun, interesting and wordy (and numbery) thread?

I would suggest "Optimal" rather than "Theoretical" Minimum File Face Width.
The theoretical minimum would just be the length of the longest gullet edge.
The reason for doubling that is an economic one rather than a physical requirement.
JMHO.

We should also think about what audience this body of information will be referred to by ... it is complete beginners that I am thinking of. People who may have picked up their first garage sale saw, or had some in the shed for a while, and are looking to do something about it. They can bodge a saw-vice if they have a wood- or metal-vice, but they need a/some files.

They need to hear about the quality issues and - if they are prepared to plan ahead - what sources to order from. But the Nicholsons are still an option in this situation when someone just wants to get in and 'have a go' without having to think too much about it - cos they're already gunna have enough to think about in the process of doing the sharpening anyway

The relevant points to me are
- it'll cost more if you want to do several like this
- it is a lesser quality
- it (should be) adequate quality
- it depends on whether you have a 16ppi backsaw or a 6ppi ripsaw
- you might need two if there's a lotta work needed

I tend to forget about the teeny teeth, and I think some of you are thinking less about the bigger saws. But a beginner is probably best off having a go at a bigger saw first off - so this is an option for them.

I for one want to see people 'having a go' - and I think that Nicholsons will represent a path of least resistance for a good proportion of new beginners.

I will be trying out some of these less salubrious* brands by the weekend.

Cheers,
Paul
(*He was a Roman saw-filer. Probably in an Asterix book)

[johnredl]

Excellent, thanks a lot guys. I've now got heaps of info to digest, sort, and act on.

[FenceFurniture]

Maybe there should be a separate summary thread started with only the staticly concluded elements of this fun, interesting and wordy (and numbery) thread?

I was thinking exactly that last night Paul. Something like "Saw Sharpening Files 100.5 - the simple version". Best to wait until after the testing though.

[FenceFurniture]

This morning I received some very interesting feedback from Joel at Tools For Working Wood. The bottom line is that he too is in despair ("at a loss") regarding Saw Files.

"On your suggestion I did call ICS Cutting Tools but they were vague and it seems their files are at least partially made in India too." BUGGER!

Kevin Drake also tried to contact them, but has received the same as me - nothing.

One disturbing point made was that even one of the Swiss made files may be partially made in India and finished in Switzerland, thus entitling it to be proclaimed "Made in Switzerland".

If that is the case then the brands of files not made at least partially "elsewhere", but actually 100% made in Europe from European steel would be:
Bahco
Pferd
Liogier

That's it, and it's a bloody disgrace to the manufacturing world.