David Hicks

[Bleedin Thumb]

It was with a fair bit of trepidation that I looked back at this thread. I felt it would be safe as after all this time, some of the ignorant, bigoted ranters would have seen past their own noses and realised that David Hicks is a pawn in a big, ugly political game.

Alas no the same old ignorant, vengeful sentiments are still being vehemently regurgitated.

There really is no hope for humanity.

And for all those that share the sentiments of Brudda et al... if your son or grandson ever accidently got caught up in the shyte that Hicks just has - you better pray that the Western Justice is improving - it just seems to be getting worse from where I'm standing.

[JackoH]

I'm with Brudda! Don't get me started, (Red mist descending) else we'll be on to flag burners, greenies, libbers(of all types) and all those other noisy minority groups whose lives seem to be dedicated to bringing this great country of ours down.
The b#^*#*ds seem unable to realise that this is THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If they said and did in public almost anywhere else what they say and do in Oz they would be incarcerated so quickly that they would not know what hit them. What's more they would like as not, never be heard from again!
There,I feel better now.

[Grunt]

I'm with Brudda! Don't get me started, (Red mist descending) else we'll be on to flag burners, greenies, libbers(of all types) and all those other noisy minority groups whose lives seem to be dedicated to bringing this great country of ours down.
The b#^*#*ds seem unable to realise that this is THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If they said and did in public almost anywhere else what they say and do in Oz they would be incarcerated so quickly that they would not know what hit them. What's more they would like as not, never be heard from again!
There,I feel better now.

One of the things that makes this country great is that we have a sense of a fair go. Allowing one of our citizens to be put through a trial that was plainly unfair diminishes one of the things that makes this country what it is.

[Sturdee]

Unfortunately this is about the alleged American justice system.

David Hicks is being tried by the Americans as a terrorist as a result of their unilaterally declared “War on Terrorism”. If this is indeed a war than he is and should be treated as a POW under the Geneva Convention of which the US is a signatory.


Under that convention the US is indeed allowed to keep imprisoned any POW until they wish to release them. For instance the USSR, after WW2, marched all their German POW’s into Siberian labour camps and only started to release ordinary soldiers after 10 years, some officers after 15 years and any SS was never released.


But the US does not acknowledge Hicks, or anyone else, as a POW. Instead it tried to cloak their detaining of their detainees under some kind of show justice, that even the US Supreme court ruled unacceptable. They even keep them in a foreign country in an attempt to by pass American law.


Then when it finally comes to trial two-third of Hicks legal team is refused admittance to the court and the remaining one is left to battle on alone. And they call that justice.


Then there is the issue of a 5 year wait before the trial. In our country he would have been released by the Supreme Court long ago because justice delayed is justice denied.


So yes it is a trial of the American justice system and in my opinion it stinks and our PM is supporting this.


Now I don’t know if he was guilty or not but at this stage in the show trial that the US is trying to do ( just like Stalin did in the 30’3 and 40’s) it is irrelevant. What they are doing is not justice and unless they want to hold him as a POW until the war against terror is over they should release him.


Peter.

[JackoH]

Tell all that to the people who died in the twin towers, in Bali and all the other bombing atrocities around the world fuelled financed and encouraged by terrorists.
I seem to remember that when he was caught the consensus at my watering hole was "String the b#^*#^d up. Too bloody good for him!"
How time dims and softens the memory.
Now he's pleaded guilty for whatever reason. Probably so that he can come home and serve his time in a nice comfy(comparatively) Aussie prison!
Then the Australian taxpayer can fund his stay.

[Poppa]

I'm not a fan of David Hicks. Seems to me that he was aiding the terrorists and planning to fight for them, if he had not started to fight for them already.

But, we live in a democracy, and our country supports a basic standard of human rights. One of these rights is the right to a trial. We do not allow people (nor should we) to be held indefinitely without charge or trial. The US does, which is a blight on their democracy and an indictment on the Bush administration. Hicks should have been charged and tried years ago. By all means, if he is guilty of a crime, incarcerate him. But it is wrong to lock him up indefinitely without charge or trial. This is one of the freedoms that we are supposed to be fighting for.

In our system Hicks is also entitled to a fair trial with legal representation. I'm pretty sure that he isn't getting that. I think our government should stand up to the US and demand that he be sent home, so that he can be tried here. I'm rather sick of Howard's toadying attitude towards Bush - who is a president who has proven his lack of intelligence and his complete self-interest to the point where the majority of people in his own country don't want him as president anymore and the majority of people in the rest of the world despise him. Why is our PM cow-towing to a man like that?

[Bleedin Thumb]

[quote=Poppa;486116]. I think our government should stand up to the US and demand that he be sent home, so that he can be tried here. I'm rather sick of Howard's toadying attitude towards Bush - quote]

The Americans were practically begging Howard to apply to get Hicks sent home last year because they feared his trial was going to be an embarrassment.
But for some unfathomable reason our government wouldn't change their stance.

I think that (Matrix?) may be right about the timing of all of this.

One could never question Howard's intelligence or his political astuteness - its just his ideology that scares me.

[Grunt]

Then the Australian taxpayer can fund his stay.

We do this for every criminal.

[Sturdee]

Tell all that to the people who died in the twin towers, in Bali and all the other bombing atrocities around the world fuelled financed and encouraged by terrorists.

Rather irrelevant and inflammatory.

David Hicks was fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan when he was caught by the Northern alliance of warlords in Afghanistan and handed over to the Americans. They paid a rather large bounty for this as it suited the yanks to have something to show to their people of how good they were capturing alleged terrorists. But Hicks wasn't a terrorist at that stage but a soldier in the Afghanistan army.

Don't forget the Taliban regime was the legal government of Afghanistan who because they refused to hand over OBL were invaded by the US. A sovereign country that did not kowtow to the yanks, unlike us, was invaded because Bush didn't like their policies. Hence he should be treated as a POW.

But how can you expect justice from the US when Bush, with our support, invades countries like Afghanistan and Iraq when he doesn't like their internal policies. And they wonder why the rest of the world dislike them?

They wonder why more than 50 % of Iraqies think it is right to bomb the invading and occupying forces.

No wonder Hicks is using the plea bargaining to regain his freedom.


Peter.

[Metal Head]

Hi,

Now all those people who said Hicks is scum. Have any of you contacted the former managers of AWB who gave millions of $$$'s in back handers to Saddam and his merry men?. We know for sure that money (Australian) was used to purchase weapons (maybe not of mass destruction but weapons all the same) has resulted in deaths of innocent Australians, many hundreds of American soldiers and thousands of innocent lives.

Don't you think they were traitors and deserve to be locked away in conditions like Hicks. No course not or you would have done something about it - at least whinged here at WW. Instead they are living in luxury in comparison.

It won't be long before the yanks will be dragging us into war with Iran which they have wanted for at least a couple of years now.

MH

[Bodgy]

Have any of you contacted the former managers of AWB who gave millions of $$$'s in back handers to Saddam and his merry men?. We know for sure that money (Australian) was used to purchase weapons (maybe not of mass destruction but weapons all the same) has resulted in deaths of innocent Australians, many hundreds of American soldiers and thousands of innocent lives.

Stretching a bit of a long bow there, Metal

1. Without these 'commissions' AWB would not have got the business. The US or Canada would have
2. The commissions went into the personal pockets of the then regime bigwigs, none of whom would be fighting or financing the present unrest. Too busy on their yachts and Swiss mansions (or executed)
3. Many Australians would have experienced a drop in living standards, particularly in the bush, had the price of wheat fallen due to a surplus supply

It's not right, but it is the way things go in many parts of the world.

[DavidG]

Any one who has done business in Asia knows that you need to grease the wheels.
It is considered an insult not to.

[Big Shed]

Never thought I would agree with Kevin Rudd, but I reserve my judgement until the end of this military commission. Until that time most of what the media is reporting is pure speculation and hype.

Mr Hicks will have to explain what he is pleading guilty to and that will make an interesting story, unless he commits perjury perhaps?

At the end of the day there seem to be 2 camps, anti-Hicks and pro-Hicks and I wonder how many in the pro-Hicks camp are really using this for a bit of old fashioned Howard bashing?

About the only one I have any respect for is Terry Hicks, any man that sticks up for his son and stands by him despite public opinion deserves respect.

At the end of the day, the truth about all this was lost long ago in the "fog of war".

[Daddles]

Have any of you contacted the former managers of AWB who gave millions of $$$'s in back handers to Saddam and his merry men?. We know for sure that money (Australian) was used to purchase weapons (maybe not of mass destruction but weapons all the same) has resulted in deaths of innocent Australians, many hundreds of American soldiers and thousands of innocent lives.

Stretching a bit of a long bow there, Metal

1. Without these 'commissions' AWB would not have got the business. The US or Canada would have
2. The commissions went into the personal pockets of the then regime bigwigs, none of whom would be fighting or financing the present unrest. Too busy on their yachts and Swiss mansions (or executed)
3. Many Australians would have experienced a drop in living standards, particularly in the bush, had the price of wheat fallen due to a surplus supply

It's not right, but it is the way things go in many parts of the world.

AWB was the worst offender by a long way. If you want to justify behaviour like that on the grounds that 'if they don't, someone else will', you'd might as just scrap any ideas of justice.

Oh hang on, that is what's happened.

David Hicks was fighting for another country. He broke NO laws - the charges against him have been trumped up since. The fact that that country also harboured a terrorist organisation is no justification for the appalling suspension of human rights and justice by the American government. That our government seems to think this all really neat is no justification either.

America has made this world far less safe than it was before because is has shown to the world that there is no justice in America nor are they interested in justice - they are only interested in chasing their own purposes. Welcome to the law of the gun (or the nuke as the case may be). That may have been the case before, but now that is acknowledged openly (is even government policy) and that is always the precursor to unrestricted use of that power.

David Hicks may have been misguided. He may have been a fool. He may even be the complete tosser that many believe he is, but his (and other's) treatment at the hands of the most powerful country in the world was and continues to be, appalling. Those who believe that torture, imprisonment without trial, deliberate attempts to divert whatever safeguards are present under a political system should consider what their position now is in this world. We, citizens of one of America's closest allies now have fewer rights and protections than Americans. And you're happy with that?

The American military is growing stronger and now that it has proven the methods for bypassing American justice, will only go from strength to strength. America isn't far from the point where a military coup can be affected legally and if not, without risk of failure.

But hey, that's not scary. We're America's friends ... you can tell that by the way they treat us

Richard

[Metal Head]

Stretching a bit of a long bow there, Metal

1. Without these 'commissions' AWB would not have got the business. The US or Canada would have
2. The commissions went into the personal pockets of the then regime bigwigs, none of whom would be fighting or financing the present unrest. Too busy on their yachts and Swiss mansions (or executed)
3. Many Australians would have experienced a drop in living standards, particularly in the bush, had the price of wheat fallen due to a surplus supply

It's not right, but it is the way things go in many parts of the world.

But does that mean it is right Bodgy - sorry I meant Dodgy given your values. It sounds like you would rather sell your ethics & morals for money rather than stand up for what is right. Thus not much difference to David Hicks who you think is a scum bag, so you should take a look at yourself before judging others.

So you would be one of those people who would pay protection money rather than stand your ground?. So it's all right for Williams (HIH) to screw a lot of elderly people out of their life saving if it means people like him can live a life of luxury when they have served their punny sentences.

What this about the poor farmers doing it tough they are one of the biggest bluggers in this country - always crying wolf when something goes wrong. If it isn't viable then like other industries here (mainly manufacturing) then close and go into another line of work. No one is making them do what they choose to do. We were having to pay through the nose when the banana's plantations were damaged. Why could we get them from overseas for a third of the price?. No it wasn't the fear of pests coming in but the government doesn't want to lose their votes because it knows it is on borrowed time. When Australians start thiking about others rather than themselves then this will be the country it once was.

MH