Election

[Big Shed]

No this is because Qantas staff have to work longer for less to recoup the $69m Qantas have been fined for rigging post costs to the US.

HH.

Dixon has made Pratt look like a beginner!

[silentC]

I was the delegate for many years

Stands to reason you would be pro-union then, doesn't it?

Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

So you advocate compulsory membership then?

I have been a member of a total of one union in my life (excluding the student union at uni). Over a period of 10 years, I watched our 'hard won' benefits eroded away before our eyes. RDO's went first, then leave loading, then overtime. That's why union membership has declined - because unions are now a toothless tiger. It remains to be seen whether Labor will restore them to their former glory, or whether they will submerge forever in a sea of irrelevance.

[Waldo]

1. Ever heard of a lockout guys?
2. How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
3. Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?
4. Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

5. Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .

1. Ever heard of 6 months or so ago where a car parts supplier to Ford and Holden had to shut down? The union said no you can't sack the workers Union locked the company down, as a result 100's of workers at the car plants lost their jobs as a result. Nevermind looking after their members

2. Never have. No unions in my industry thank goodness. I've always negotiated my pay and conditions, I'd only be paying money for what I can easily do myself.

3. What's that got to do with anything? Yes I do donate to charity: to Juvenile Diabetes Fund and several orphanages in India.

4. The best situation would be for two choices: join a union and for those who don't want to then they negotiate their own conditions. For those that negotiate the unions steer clear and leave them to get about their job.

5. Yes I run a small business, no I don't employ anyone, but I do contract out, and they're paid $65 per hour for their work.

I was told to join a union when I was a nightpacker, I didn't and got the sack. Go figure.

[Groggy]

I don't think anyone is against workers rights being protected. I also don't think anyone wants businesses to be bullied either.

What seems to be at issue, but not stated, is "what is the best way to protect those interests?". At times in our history it has been necessary to protect workers and businesses from each other and their representatives.

Nowadays there is a lot more legislative protection than in the past, and the need for strong measures (strikes and lockouts) has reduced. In that environment the need for unions is lessened, but it does not follow that the need to protect workers has reduced.

[Waldo]

Well said Groggy.

[astrid]

no silent, I dont advocare compulsory membership, just that those who arnt members should forfeit benefits gained by those who lost pay to get them, is this unreasonable? and i notice you dont address the issue of what workplaces were like for women without union representation. women were and still are one of the most exploited groups in our community. those who do piecework, those who get up at 4am to clean city offices. working mothers put on rolling short term contracts. and denied long service leave or flexiblility around school holidays plus a host of other things. This happens in white collar work as well as blue. Ask me I'm one of them. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months. we work for one of the biggest insurers in the country. and guess what, the Union is locked out. We have no-one to help we just have to wear it. Astrid

[silentC]

Actually, I'm not anti-union per se. I think if you scroll back a couple of pages, you might have even seen me write something to the affect that unions have done a lot of good.

There are certain aspects of the union movement that I don't like, and one of them is this attitude that you're either with us or against us. People have various reasons for not wanting to join a union - they should not be penalised for it. The other is the ugly side that I have witnessed once myself in the past and many other people have related here and elsewhere. I suppose it's a question of how much power you believe unions should have.

BTW I've had my pay not come through a couple of times in the past. I got it sorted out, with no union involvement. Mistakes happen. I usually contacted the HR department or my manager. That's what they're there for.

[astrid]

how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?
I didnt say you were anti union, what I am trying to point out here is simply ther are good and bad unions and good and bad employers.
To really throw the cat amongst the pidgions lets look at conditions on building sites befor the BLF and Gallhager.
Or the working conditions of overseas sailors befor the painters and dockers stepped in and refused to unload ships untill these conditions improved.
these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.

my issue is the indiscriminate union bashing for political gain.
and you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?
Also unintentional HR stuff ups are one thing, to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.
Astrid

[fxst]

So the unions are good for workers>> heres an extract form todays Advertiser in Adelaide.....obviously thats ok and a good deal for workers....mmmmmm I can't see it. Seems very AWAish to me but its ok Kev is in now and he will stop this discrimination I guess
Pete

[woodbe]

Isn't this thread locked yet?

[silentC]

how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?

The person next to you could be being paid less than you, or have less sick leave, or not be allowed to eat in the lunch room simply because they are not a member of the union - that is the penalty you're suggesting. This is why I believe that the function of unions would be better performed by an independent organisation funded by the government that works for better conditions for ALL employees, not just 'the membership'. Sort of like the Arbitration Commission is supposed to be.

these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.

No argument there. The first part is what a lot of us are saying is wrong with the union movement - what happens when they get too much power.

you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?

I have no experience on which to draw, so not really any comment I can give. But I thought we had an Equal Opportunity commission for that.

to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.

I don't follow - are you saying you were deliberately not paid in an effort to frighten you, or are you making a different point?

[Groggy]

2000 new jobs? Did anyone ask where these people will come from in todays "full employment" environment? Most likely they will recruit from overseas anyway.

[Studley 2436]

Unions have depended on special conditions under the law as long as they have been going. Right to entry, right to negotiate regardless or whether the individual wanted it or not and so on. Their campaign about work choices was basically about this. Being all for individual liberty I disagree with the Unions demands.

However there are lots of things that go on in the workplace and regarding negotiations for a fair deal conditions etc surely a union would have a very good service to offer. The shame is they do not see themselves as being a service provider. Really the Unions have to bring themselves up to date with the modern day if they are going to survive.

As for the Rudd Government there are many challenges before it, many challenges in front of the Liberal party too. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Studley

[dazzler]

. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months.

Is this because they are women

How does that work

Less ranting and more sense makin

[dazzler]

I'll have a go at addressing the women in the workplace....

I believe we are all equal. No orwellian utopia where some are more equal than others.

The only difference between men and women is that women can have children. During this period there rights must be protected completely.

So entitlement to maternity leave, be it paid or unpaid, is a very important right and must be protected.

But other than that there should be no other rights than men.

Take family leave (school hols etc). This is not a female only issue. Men have just as much right to care for thier children as well as women. But this is not an employers issue.

Many women want thier cake and eat it too sadly. They want a career and to be a "mother" as well. Thats fine, but its hardly the employers problem is it? Imagine if men started carrying on like it...bloody country would stop in its tracks.

If a couple decide that both parents need to work then that is an issue for them not thier employer to deal with. My wife and I worked full time and raised 2 kids without the employer having to take pay for our decision.

Single mothers with children are a harder issue, but then again if there was a whole lot more shared custody of children both the father and mother could share the burden of care and work. But almost without exception, unless the mother is something off The Jerry Springer Show, the dad gets two days a fortnight. Hang on, thats not equal.

Equal rights totally IMO.