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Thread: Whisperings
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13th December 2011, 02:09 PM #136SENIOR MEMBER
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I’ve been thinking about that 4 strand rope in the battery room. I think in the interests of historical interest, we can make that in the future. The old man, and my favourite uncle Les, used to make their own rope. They demonstrated it at the Echuca Steam rally for a few years, back in the 80’s.
It was a fairly common Sunday morning activity, and kept you out of going to Church. I’d still remember how to do it, with a bit of practice.
Link here of a guy set up for 3 and 4 strand.
http://www.wctatel.net/web/equityrealty/RopeMaking1.html
A 4 strand machine is what you need, link here of one , scroll down to about the middle of the page.
http://www.wctatel.net/web/equityrealty/wonder.html
Believe it or not, there’s a 3 strand machine on Ebay in the States right now.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-New-Era-Rope-Making-Machine-B814-/120825014443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c21bb68ab
Regards Phil.
(adding on edit)
I had a crack at a long splice at lunch time, first time in 30 years. I had a bit of ¾” 3 strand manila laying around. Turned out a bit rough. I only went back 4 turns for each of the 3 splices. I looked at that splice on the rope that’s laying on the floor in the battery room, that’s done with much longer winding between each splice.
4 turns back
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x151/machtool/015.jpg
6 ends trimmed back to 3” before splitting in half.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x151/machtool/016.jpg
Those 6 tails, split in half, to make 12 ends for tucking back each way.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x151/machtool/017.jpg
Finished splice.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x151/machtool/021.jpg
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x151/machtool/022.jpg
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13th December 2011, 06:57 PM #137SENIOR MEMBER
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I’m thinking it was just a circle cutter.
We really needed you there Stuart. Sheetmetal is your caper yes? When we got into the tinsmiths shop, we had the place to our selves. Not a tinsmith in sight.
I think its called lock forming. You know when you form an end into a “U” shape, on both ends of a stip, roll them into a cylinder, and the two “U’s” lock into each other, then you hammer them tight over a mandrel, and maybe give them a lick of solder. You would have to be careful to make the “U’s” facing the right way, or they wouldn’t hitch together.
Like the seam on an old Gal bucket, or coffee pot, these things were for cylinder money box’s.
Do you think I could find the machine that did that. Are they just folded on a folder?
Regards Phil.
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13th December 2011, 09:19 PM #138SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi Phil,
I gotta say, thats a fair effort after thirty years. If I remember correctly, Craig wound ours back 5 foot initially and the shortening splice, normally done after the ropes have stretched, was wound back about 3 feet. I know Craig would like to do the scraping class if you run another one and I am betting you two would have a bit more than scraping to talk about.
It worries me that you have two very unique skills. If you could drive a steam engine as well I would be headhunting.
Phil
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14th December 2011, 12:16 AM #139GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Phil,
More was than is but I like to keep my hand in when I get the chance.
It is indeed called lockform joint. There is a tool for "setting the lock(?)" I went looking for one a few years back before I starting filling my shed with cast iron that can make me one. People looked at me strange and said "a what?". I even asked the guy at Sovereign Hill if he knew where they got them from. Its just a up side down U a couple of inches long, the width of the joint and the depth of roughly three material thicknesses. They don't have to be on a cylinder, they can be handy for joining to flat parts as well
You dont need the solder unless you want them liquid/air tight. It should look something like the drawing if you have the tool. A center puch if you think it might slide apart length ways.
Allowance from memory is 3 time the joint width, 1/2 on each part.
They are just folded in a hand folder. Some folders are better suited to this than others. Something that goes way over 90 degrees makes life easier, more is better
Fold it over as far as you can then flip it over and either use the clamp to squash it between the fingers and the bed or close the clamp and then put the work on the top face of the fingers and lift the leaf up and squash it. Depending, you may need to put a strip of scrap in the fold to stop it closing to tight.
There is another joint which looks sort of the same but its used on corners called a Pittsburgh lockform. There are machines for them(though you can make something close with the right handle folder and a hammer if you have nothing better to do )
I might be rambling.
Stuart
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14th December 2011, 01:04 AM #140
Hi Stuart,
Let me try for an off-topic diversion... that diagram takes me back in time...
I think Phil (steam whisperer) might be the man to answer questions about double seams and closers, I'm pretty sure he used to work on Goetz closers.. I know a little, I spent a while once on the can making lines doing QC on the can line closers (about 30 years ago) and one of the jobs I did was to pull down double seams and measure hook lengths and other stuff I forget... nowadays they have optical systems with digital cameras that do the measurements for you...
It's similar to your picture but folded over again, to make the double seam.. that was a wing form body line, with soldered side seams all done at 400 cans per minute, When lead soldered joints became unpopular (strange you might think for a food product) the whole thing was outsourced to companies with soudronic welding lines which these days run much faster, I think I heard of one doing up around the 1000 cans per minute..
Regards
Ray
A picture just for old times sake...
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14th December 2011, 06:14 AM #141SENIOR MEMBER
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Oh my goodness Ray, you just took me back to the '70s. What's weirder is I was just looking through a book the missus got for christmas where she works and inside is a picture of a Goetz closer I used to work on. Personally I prefer the Canco 400 myself lol. You got wondering now, what happened to my seaming micrometer, my loupe, my seam stripper (hand made), my setting wires etc etc. gotta make sure you have no more than 15% wrinkle and no seaming chuck undercut. Ahhhh the good old days. Your double seam profile brought back a lot of memories.
Phil
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14th December 2011, 10:54 AM #142GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Ray/Phil,
Some of those machines at staggering. There are many shows on cable like "how its made" that show that sort of thing. The numbers can be as staggering as the machines. USA uses 100 billion Alum cans a year(although these shows do tend to get numbers wrong, especially when it comes to metric imp conversions. They moved an oil rig onto a barge the other day and used 150 tons of grease to lub the rails it was sliding on. I think someone got their ton and kgs mixed up.) So even with printing machines that print 2400 cans a minute its going to take awhile. They have hot dog factories that make 2.4 million hotdogs a day.
I really enjoy watching that sort of thing, then I go back out to my shed where I turn out one part a week lol.
Pittsburgh seam is prettier though
Stuart
p.s. I assume the Goetz closer is all roll formed? anyone got a chart handy of the steps?Last edited by Stustoys; 14th December 2011 at 10:56 AM. Reason: p.s.
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14th December 2011, 12:22 PM #143
A belated thanks to the Phils
Phil, thanks very, very much for your hospitality last Sunday. I so thoroughly enjoyed it. I have been ruminating quite a bit about steam these last few days.
As an aside, my wife says that here late father (who was a miner in Tassie for twenty or more years) spoke of taking the bucket ride down the shaft that you described so chillingly. He was used up by the mines, dying of a host of respiratory diseases and 3/4 deaf.
Phil Machtool, thanks for doing the leg work to get Mike and I added to the list.
Best
GregIt's all part of the service here at The House of Pain™
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14th December 2011, 03:10 PM #144Product designer retired
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Wana go back
Even though I've had my little say, when's the next visit planned, I wanna go back.
I'm still reminiscing, and trying to take in all the machines, sites and various industries seen.
I noticed Phil kept us away from the confectionery factory and brewery.
Eh, what brewery? Be a good spot for Ballarat Bitter to set up shop.
Next time I'll have a better understanding of what I'm taking in, next time as in "when my legs have recovered from the mountain climbing". That part I won't mind missing.
I now realise that just exercising my right arm does nothing for my legs.
So sad to see the grave yard where it's obvious that a lot of valuable artifacts will perish as time and weather take their toll.
Thanks again Phil, Phil and group.
Ken
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14th December 2011, 09:55 PM #145SENIOR MEMBER
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14th December 2011, 10:11 PM #146SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi Stuart
Correct as usual
Can seams are done in two stages called first op and second op. the can is preformed to a right angle. Vertical can side with a lip around its top at right angles to the side. The lid is preformed with a lip that bends back on itself. First op in roll forming is to bend the can lip down to a 'u' shape at the same time as bending the lid down 90 degrees which interlocks the bends. Second op basically crushes the interlocked bends together against the chuck located in the recess in the top of the lid
Hope you can understand my lame description.
Phil
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15th December 2011, 12:17 AM #147GOLD MEMBER
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HI Phil,
Thanks for that. If I'm understanding you correctly it looks somthing like this?
Stuart
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15th December 2011, 05:41 AM #148SENIOR MEMBER
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Very close Stuart,
First op looks the same as second just loose
In preform, the outer edge of the lid you have as vertical is bent in towards the can until it's horizontal. First op interlocks then second op crushes.
I had some seaming rollers and chucks that I could've taken some pics of to show you but I am guessing they are in the box that's gone missing somewhere somehow.
Phil
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15th December 2011, 06:03 AM #149SENIOR MEMBER
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Ray
It's funny how things go.
I was running the boilers yesterday and as happens I meet people from all over the world everyday. An elderly gent came in with his grandson. We were talking about different fuels used to fire boilers and we got onto Bass Strait crude oil. I sort of recognized him, but then I sort of recognize lots of people and am invariably wrong. I recounted the time I had a bad moment with the crude where I worked not long out of my apprenticeship. He told me where he worked he had the same problem. To cut a long story short, he then called out my name. It was the deputy manager from SPC Monbulk
How he recognized me behind the moustache and with a hat on I'll never know. I haven't seen him since 1988.
All this talk about can seams which I haven't really touched on since 1988 either, then he turns up.
Wierd!!
Phil
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15th December 2011, 10:20 AM #150Pink 10EE owner
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