Abrasives greather than 12k?

[AJS]

I wanted to know if anyone could recommend a source of abrasives ( sheets or compound) greater than 12000 grit that would work well for sanding before applying a finish to wood.

As I've posted before, my main interest in woodworking is in making handles for Straight Razors I restore, and as a Straight Razor user I have access to .5 micron Chrome Oxide Powder and .5 and .25 Diamond Paste, but I haven't tried these out yet as I'm not sure how well they'd work. I'd really prefer an abrasive in sheet form, because Chrome Ox in particular is very messy, but can't find anything higher than 12k Micro Mesh,

If it makes any difference to your responses I use the following products when making razor scales at the moment: Ekamant and Micro Mesh abrasive sheets and CA or Epoxy to finish, but am looking to start finishing with Shellac as well.

One other way I've considered finish is using a small smoothing plane, but I've not found one small enough to use with razor scales which are typically 6" long by 1" or less wide. Does anyone have any advice about implementing this and it's merits vs. high-grit abrasives?

Thankyou in advance for any help.
Kindest regards,
Alex

[Lumber Bunker]

wow thats fine...
I think you'll fine in timber finished with shelac that will be no noticeable difference after about 800.
It then becomes a case of finishing the finish.

Steve

[toolbagsPLUS]

Can't help with the abrasive, but as far as the plane goes what about a number 1 Lie neilsen would be a cheaper option than an Stanley or look at violin planes or a good scraper could be made to order for the job at hand. Not to sure about the success of using shellac on the razor handle as it is hygroscopic and therefore not to good around water.


Cheers.

Steve

[AJS]

Thankyou for the replies.
Regarding a plane vs. high grit abrasives what do people think would provide the best finish overall?

toolbagsPLUS re. Shellac and water. I have similiar concerns regarding it's suitability, but Renaissance Wax hasn't let me down yet so I'd use that over the Shellac when and if I do start using it to finish razor scales.

Kindest regards,
Alex

[durwood]

Is it 12 thousand grit you actually mean or the more common 1200.? 12 thousand grit is usually only used to polish scratches out or surfaces such as perspex ( used on airplane canopies) when you rub it onto such a surface it actually polishes the surface to a gloss. On timber ???????

Do you have access to a microscope?

If you look at even the finest grain timber you will see that the cells of the wood are huge compared to the grit size you are talking about. I don't think any timber needs to be rubbed with an abrasive paper finer than about 800 if that. The scratches left will be much smaller than the open cells of the grain.

If you look at timber closely the grain pattern is a combination of the outside and the inside of the wood cells making up the timber. usually the dark sections are the inside of the cells which contained the sap. Timber is like a piece of sponge that is why on the end grain its hard to paint as all the cells have been cut through and are open so you have what is basically a bunch of straws. the paint finish runs down into the hollows.

By puting a coating over the bare timber be it shellac or whatever you fill the grain in most cases with a couple of coats. French polishing is actually bulldozing the shellac around taking it off the high spots and filling in the low ones which are the deepest parts of the timber. On really open grain timber a wood filler is used because the grain holes are big. Instead of putting on heaps of finish ( which usually leads to other problems such as cracking ). you add the filler to fill in the holes.

So rubbing with really fine paper is a useless exercise, the ultra fine papers are designed for flatting actual paint coatings to remove slight differences in the surface or to remove dust etc. 12,000 scratches in paint can be filled with a wax or polish or removed by buffing with a lambs wools pad. So you can see its an overkill to use such fine paper on bare.

If you are not convinced try the microscope test you will be amazed how rough timber is compared to abrasive paper grit.

[AJS]

Thankyou for the very detailed reply. I do have a stereo microscope, which I use to check razor edges, but I've never looked at the grain structure of wood before. I usually use Ekamant abrasives up to 400 grit and then go up Micro Mesh grits to 12,000. Some of the first scales I made were using stabilised wood, I got good results going upto 12k on these, but obviously that was due to their being polymer filled, and simply did the same on other woods as a matter of course..

At the moment, and based on the responses to this thread, I'm leaning towards using a Smoothing Plane anyway, I just need to find one that is small enough and with a slight curve in the cutting edge.

Once again, thankyou for the replies.
Kind regards,
Alex

[orraloon]

Alex,

As others have said after 800g it is mostly a feel good exercise. Before I got into turning I hardly ever used any grit smaller than 400. I have gone to 1200 but only on special pieces.
Not all woods are the same as you know so at some stage you pass the point where improvement can be made. I assume you will be using a hard dense wood but some of them have large cell structure.
A sharp plane will leave a good surface most of the time but not the ultimate surface and you're plane skills need to be good. A scraper will improve on the plane just a bit. Burnishing is another trick. Done with a polished steel rod or a small glass bottle. Rub the wood in the direction of the grain and compress the surface a bit. Works well on small projects but would not be practical on large wide surfaces.
Another place to look for info may be some of the knife makers sites .
Regards
John

[Wongo]

Try the back of the sandpaper.

[petersemple]

I have used up to 12000 Micro Mesh on some woods on the lathe. On decent hard dense woods I can get to the point where I can (just) see my face in the bare wood with no finish. I'm not sure why You want to go finer than that before the polish goes on.

Peter

[AJS]

Once again, thankyou for taking the time to reply.

Thanks for the tip about burnishing, that is something else I will look into.

Why do I want to go higher than 12K? No practical reason, I think mostly it's just an obsessive- compulsive thing. That being said, I think I've overcome the idea of going higher than 12k. Every respondent has said that it's not necessary, and having taken the time to closely examine the grain through a microscope, I can see that my thought process of the finer- the- better was flawed to say the least.

Kindest regards,
Alex

[kiwigeo]

I sand my guitars to 220 grit and then wet down to raise the grain before finishing with 320 and 400 grit prior to finishing (French Polish). IMHO even 220 is high enough for bare wood. For finished wood you can go to absurdly high grades using Micromesh.

[justinmcf]

i make fine furniture, the highest grit i use is 4000, when i use my festool random orbital sander and work through the grits......

starting with 80, 120, 240, 320, 400, 800, 1000, 2000, and finishing with 4000.

by the time i get to 1000, you can see the light reflecting off the timber, by the time i finish with 4000, you can see your own reflection.

it is as close to a glass finish as i can get, i dont do this high grit finish often, only when i am using bees wax.
it would be a waste of time sanding to 4000 grit and then trying to coat it with a varnish, the surface is so smooth, the varnish just rolls off the timber.
when using a varnish, oil based or water based,( i prefer water based these days) i finish with 320 grit or 400 grit depending on the timber, i have never had a complaint yet!

i cant imagine why you need to sand to 12000 grit with timber, try a few samples first, it will save you time in the long run.

regards, justin.

[Mr Brush]

I've just been playing with my new Festool ETS150/3, using a range of sample Brilliant2 papers kindly supplied by Anthony at IdealTools.

Firstly, the finish from a P400 Brilliant2 paper is far better than I've got in the past using other sanders at 400 grit. More than good enough for most of the finishes I use.

So then I tried the P800 Brilliant2....resulting in effectively a satin finish (some shine) on the bare timber.

Given this result, I can't see much point in going past 1200 grit (which i have yet to try). Only on rare occasions would I even use P800.

VERY impressed with the ETS150/3 incidentally - a massive improvement in every way over the Hitachi ROS I have been using up to now. Hooked up to the Festool vac, it produces almost zero dust, and the low vibration makes it easier to avoid rolling over the edges on flat surfaces.

[Gra]

Have you tried our sponsors product EEE. Its tripoli powder based, bit like cutters for automotive paint, but for timber.

[weisyboy]

i recomend eee polishes teh wood form 400 grit to the pint where you can see your face in it.