I Wonder If

[Sturdee]

swimming pool swimming pool swimming pool

Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

[echnidna]

There's been a few people boiled alive from jumping into water tanks in a bushfire.

[mic-d]

Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

I'm thinking inground pool. With the cover I suggested earlier. 800 gallons of water's not much compared to a swimming pool and it was probably above ground too.

Cheers
Michael

[RETIRED]

There's been a few people boiled alive from jumping into water tanks in a bushfire.

Too true.

[ian]

I Wonder If it is economically possible to build a relocateable fire safety shelter that could withstand bushfires.

define "economically possible"

anything is "possible" — you could coat the external walls and roof of a shed with the sort of heat tiles they use on the space shuttle — but can you afford it?


as someone else said inground SWIMMING POOL to which I'll add PLUS diesel powerd water pump and spray system that drains from the house back into the pool

small pools and elevated tanks are just traps because the water boils.



ian

[Lignin]

I believe the Yanks have "Fireproof" trucks which spray fire retardant over the cab.I do not know how efficient they are,
I was taught a survival technique similar to that outlined by ---dig a scrape, or. if time is short, get down as low as possible ,preferrably to the lee side of something incombustible, and cover yourself with what ever comes to hand.I think I might call upon the Deities too.

[Chris Parks]

I never want to be in a big fire a few small ones was enough including one straight over the top of our tanker. Re swimming pools, there was a well documented case in Sydney where a woman died in an inground pool so they are not foolproof either. If you have not been involved you have got absolutely no idea of the sheer overwhelming nature of a rampaging bush fire and I hope you never find out. Every well planned move vanishes and panic sets in even for the most well trained, firefighters, police everyone. The s**t hits the fan in the biggest possible way and survival literally becomes a matter of sheer luck and the grace of god. I have got a plan and used it a few years ago, take everything not insured and leave the rest we were just lucky we did not have to do an insurance claim. I will be surprised if the forum comes out unscathed from this and I wish everyone in Victoria the best in coping with this terrible tragedy. Good to hear from you Fred.

[RETIRED]

According to the news just on: 85 fatalities and 750 houses lost.

[mic-d]

Don't think that's so good, heard today on the radio about a guy who had a concrete tank full with 800 gallons of water where the water was boiling after the fire had passed. So hot was the inferno.

Peter.

Spent much of the night thinking about this problem.

When I said swimming pool, I was bumping my earlier idea for a properly designed fire shelter for use in association with a swimming pool. If something as simple as this works:
http://www.anclotefire.com/proddetail.php?prod=FS-x
and 's personal experience suggests, it can be done.

Some of the problems of an underground shelter has been outlined, most people wouldn't have one anyway. I wouldn't trust a mechanics pit, given it might have a structure over it, be near flammable material and is probably saturated with sump oil.

A inground swimming pool probably has no overhead structure and would be a huge heat sink. With the appropriate design, the water could be utilized very effectively. For example, if you sit in a bath tub of water under a tree on a 40º day, the water will draw away a certain amount of heat until it reaches an ambient temperature, quite a bit of energy but nothing compared to the energy it draws away on vaporization or evaporation. Just evaporating a litre of that water would account for a good portion of the all the heat the water has absorbed.
I've been thinking of how to engineer this to make it failsafe for deployment and effective. I thought of integrating something like this blind:
http://www.firelinings.co.uk/fire-curtain.php
into sun shade structures, that would be gravity deployed, but I think it is overly complicated and would necessitate cooling of the structure and provide too great a surface area to be affected by radiant heat and wind.
I've come back to something simple similar to a pool blanket on a roller made out of something like this:
http://www.firezat.com/
The outer border would be weighted like a cast net (only heavier) to keep it under water, inside that would be a bladder running around the perimeter of the blanket, and in the centre would be another bladder. To deploy it you would just run it straight off into the pool in a matter of seconds, dive in and pull a CO2 canister that inflates the bladders giving an air space underneath, you would also incorporate compressed air canister for longer duration. To go up one more level you would have a small diesel engine pump in a waterproof housing that you'd start and drop to the bottom of the pool. The pump would cycle water cooling to the engine, water cooling to the air intake snorkel and primarily to sprinklers sraying over the shelter to cool by evaporative cooling.
Think that about sums it up.

Cheers
Michael

[fenderbelly]

I should imagine you could easily build a heat reflector type shed out of iron on the frame of a trailer. It would need iron on the outside to defend against combustibles and raw heat, have several very thick layers of insulation, be able to be strongly anchored to the ground and have an air supply inside plus water etc. You would have to have skirts reaching the ground so you did not get heat underneath and turn it into a grill. Even then it would only be suitable till the fire had flashed over. Having fought some serious fires first-hand the best defence for a novice is still flight well beforehand. They simply cannot comprehend the heat and ferocity of a wildfire so they underestimate it.

If you want to stay I reckon the best defence is a proper in-ground shelter, even then lack of oxygen and smoke can be a killer. I would not feel comfortable in something like this either.

I was talking to the guy who runs our little brigade here and he said that the items in Groggys' link had been discussed here in SA and is still on the table but they are used in the USA by firefighters who parachute into places to fight fires, while here most if not all fireies are with their fire truck.

Cheers Fred

[sailingamerican]

I should imagine you could easily build a heat reflector type shed out of iron on the frame of a trailer. It would need iron on the outside to defend against combustibles and raw heat, have several very thick layers of insulation, be able to be strongly anchored to the ground and have an air supply inside plus water etc. You would have to have skirts reaching the ground so you did not get heat underneath and turn it into a grill. Even then it would only be suitable till the fire had flashed over. Having fought some serious fires first-hand the best defence for a novice is still flight well beforehand. They simply cannot comprehend the heat and ferocity of a wildfire so they underestimate it.

If you want to stay I reckon the best defence is a proper in-ground shelter, even then lack of oxygen and smoke can be a killer. I would not feel comfortable in something like this either.

Iron? You have not seen melted cars from fire storms.
Steel gets so hot you would blister inside and it would suck all the air out. They make fire tents but even here in So California we had 5 fire men die in the middle of a fire. They were in the pop up shelter and died from smoke and burns. I feel so sad and bad about the fires there in Australia. Our gvernment gets everyone out. There are those who refuse to leave but there is no excuse for deaths a day after the fires started. I do not understand why people did not leave. Hard one for me to follow. We have had huge fires here. In one month 7 years ago we had 8 big fires and lost 6,000 homes. Only several deaths from elderly people who could not get out or refused to leave. There is no excuse for the loss of life. It is not the governments place to save you. Education I guess is the answer. I donated to several funds. I have a lot of family in Australia and we are following the news morning and night. Our prayers are will all.

[Groggy]

Iron? You have not seen melted cars from fire storms.

If you look at the remains of the houses, one of the very few items still recognisable is corrugated iron roofing sheets. The iron in my post was suggested as an outer reflective layer supported by multiple layers of heat insulating materials. The intent with any portable shelter is to get in as clear an area as possible, away from fuel, and wait till the 'firestorm' has passed. So if the user can get into a reasonably clear area (road) they should stand a fair chance. Any such a device would have to be tested by fire authorities and they would give it a pretty strenuous testing.

I read another post where shuttle style ceramic tiles were suggested - this may be an even better solution.

[echnidna]

I read another post where shuttle style ceramic tiles were suggested - this may be an even better solution.

oooooohhh, think I'll head orf ter Broken Hill (I think) and stake out some mining claims coz thats where the raw material fer the shuttle comes from.

[Jim Carroll]

After the Ash Wednesday fires when there was a crew from Linton that were caught and lost their lifes it was made mandatory that the tankers could not be run dry and there is a small reserve that can be used in these situations so they can spray the tanker and keep the fire away.

Not sure if it would have been effective enough with what happened over the weekend as this was more extreme.

A bunker in ground away from the house with a backup pump from a concrete tank to spray water over the bunker to help keep it cool till the fire passes would help. As they say it is usually 6 minutes from start to finish and if set up properly could save a lot more lives. Needs to be a mandatory thing for anyone in these types of enviroments.

It is stuborness that kills people as they think we can save the house, some yes most no.

[Groggy]

oooooohhh, think I'll head orf ter Broken Hill (I think) and stake out some mining claims coz thats where the raw material fer the shuttle comes from.

The ceramic tile idea has merit I think. We don't have to have super expensive 'shuttle' tiles, just something that can take a furnace heat for 20 minutes or so.

Clay might be a good insulator too but making it into a portable solution would be problematic.

(I didn't know the shuttle tiles came from Broken Hill, how about that!)