Thou Shalt Not Steal

[silentC]

I was arguing with my old man the other night on a topic that is forbidden on this board. I wont therefore go into the argument other than to say that it involved whether or not the 'Ten Commandments' were a useful tool for guiding people in their everyday lives - should they be taught in schools etc.

Leaving aside the issue of there actually being about three different sets of them, depending upon your persuasion, I suggested that such things were widely open to interpretation and what may seem black and white to one person may be grey to another.

Take for example the commandment "thou shalt not steal" (number 8 or 7 depending on which list you look at). The definition of stealing, or theft, is "the unauthorised taking or use of someone else's property with the intent to deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use". I suggested that this could equally apply to income tax - it all hinges upon what you understand by 'unathorised' and 'rightful possession'. Someone coming from a society that has no income tax might see it as theft in that sense.

So it's not enough to say "you should not steal" without also providing a definition of what stealing is - but the definition may differ depending upon the society in which you live. Our society is big on possessions and this is reflected in our laws but what about societies where there is no such thing as 'possessions'? Without possessions, there can be no theft, so where does "thou shalt not steal" leave them?

I'm not debating the validity of income tax, nor am I opening a religious debate. I was just interested in whether or not people believe these things are clear cut and perhaps why some people have a very clear sense of right and wrong and why others do not. Is this something that could be taught in schools, or is it just a 'hardwired' part of your personality.

[craigb]

Well I for one am not going to covet my neihgbour's ass

Seriuosly though, is this the nature v nurture debate?

My own opinion is it's up to your parents to teach you the difference between right and wrong.

[silentC]

Oh it's Ass! I always thought it was **** Now it all makes sense.

Come on, I'm trying to introduce a bit of philosophical discussion here, you know, raise the bar on the "So what's all this about ..." threads that we've been running lately.

[Iain]

What was that story about the priest who had his bike stolen, he started to preach the ten commandments at his next sermon and remembered where he left it when he got to 'thou shalt not commit adultery'.

[silentC]

Seriuosly though, is this the nature v nurture debate?

Not really. It's more about whether there's a set of rules that always apply or whether anarchy is just below the surface. What holds it all together?

Looking at some of the stuff that goes on, not very much. We've got a family here that were 'relocated' from another town. There are 8 kids, mostly primary school age and under. They have so far demolished a toilet block, broken into several cars, houses and shops, and set fire to a house with someone in it. The father tells them what to steal and stands on guard to warn them if someone comes.

I didn't get this stuff drummed into me as a kid, so how come these guys have such a different idea to mine about what's acceptable and what's not?

[Alastair]

Come on, I'm trying to introduce a bit of philosophical discussion here, you know, raise the bar

C'mon Silent,

Get real... this IS a woodworking BB isn't it?

Alastair

[craigb]

Not really. It's more about whether there's a set of rules that always apply or whether anarchy is just below the surface. What holds it all together?

Looking at some of the stuff that goes on, not very much. We've got a family here that were 'relocated' from another town. There are 8 kids, mostly primary school age and under. They have so far demolished a toilet block, broken into several cars, houses and shops, and set fire to a house with someone in it. The father tells them what to steal and stands on guard to warn them if someone comes.

I didn't get this stuff drummed into me as a kid, so how come these guys have such a different idea to mine about what's acceptable and what's not?

Well the sad fact of the matter is that breeds .

The fact that you were brought up properly by responsible people meant you didn't need to have it drummed into you. You knew what was acceptable and what wasn't. Quite possibly you may have even copped an occasional hiding for transgressing, which you probably deserved.

To go back to your biblical thing, you were pretty much taught to "do unto others"

Because of this background you are going to teach your own childdren the same or similar values, although I doubt that kids cop a hiding these days beacuse it's gone out of fashion, maybe rightly so.

However, the opposite is also true. Have the misfortune to be born into a family of scumbags and it's London to a brick that you'll turn out to be a scumbag yourself.

So I guess I'm saying it's nurture not nature thats the overriding influence on what sort of person you turn out to be.

Just my opinion of course.

Craig

[Termite]

I would like to think that the principles of right and wrong are taught in every household, however reality does suggest otherwise.
There is of course the fact that there are people out there who's regard for other peoples property is almost beyond belief. They don't even think like most of us, it's as though their brains are wired differently.
Then again as a noted dog expert once said "Most dogs are born rational, but now and again you get one born with the personality of Attila the Hun and there's nothing you can do to change them".
I must admit that a thief with a hand cut off is pretty drastic but then again can we afford to be ever increasingly considerate of criminals who dont give a damn about their victims. The courts seem to have forgotten that the punishment should fit the crime.

[vsquizz]

Its interesting you mention Tax and Theft in the same sentence.

I like the Pysche that pervails in that you try and minimise your tax. Can't hold that against someone can you. If you overstep the mark and get sprung well...don't do the crime if you can't do the time. What I can't stand is the companies who rip off masses of fringe benefits and when they get sprung they whinge and bleat like nothing on earth.

Teach your kids to accept responsibility for their actions. Its about the hardest thing to do in the current climes. When we are all dead and buried the world might be a better place.

Cheers

[silentC]

OK, here's another example. In most of the major religions, usury (lending money for profit) is prohibited. Yet this doesn't stop the majority of people from doing it anyway. Only the really strict ones observe it. So why is that 'rule' OK to break? Why is usury less morally wrong than stealing? Or is it?

See where I'm heading: income tax, interest? All evil and the work of the devil.

[jackiew]

The Jesuits have a saying " Give me a Child until the age of 7 and I'll show you the man" .

If you hear your parents gloating over all the things they've nicked, if your parents send you into shops to steal when you are too young to talk ( my mum has seen parents do this in London) then by the time you reach primary school age you're going to have a totally different attitude to people's property.

I continually surprise my boyfriend by pointing out unlocked cars, open windows with nice things lying within reach, things left lying around in people's gardens shouting "take me", "take me". I don't take them because I was brought up not to but I grew up in an area where the general consensus (sp?) was that if you were too stupid to secure it you were too stupid to keep it. Which means that mr and ms average wouldn't break your car window to take something but might well open your unlocked car door and take it.

Its all shades of grey.

[vsquizz]

Well if your an employee your PAYE Tax is being withheld by your employer or the Tax office. I'm a sole trader, I withhold my own tax all year and earn some interest the whole time , then I have to declare the interest and pay tax on it:mad: but you get my point. All you employees are getting thefted from:eek: . Somebody is doing something with your money in the mean time.

If you want a differnce of opinion MHO is that superannuation is the biggest form of legal theft going in this country.

Back to Law. Law without guidance and precedence is damm near useless as evidenced by some recently well published decisions. The judges ruled within the crap laws where as moraly most of us knew it was wrong.

You can find examples of Hypocracy in all forms and manners of the way societies/religions live. Don't take offence its just MHO and I'm happy for others to live under their household rules. Just don't come knocking on my door and try and shove them down my neck, when I need them I'll come looking.

Similarly if you climb over my back fence, knock my stuff off don't expect me to be sympathetic to your poor circumstances. I don't think there is too many people out there who don't actually know what is right and wrong, but it becomes habit. I am the first to admit I am no angel but I have to live with mistakes and try and do better. With some people it doesn't seem to bother them that they have done somebody else wrong. I'm with Termite, it aint genetic.


Cheers

[jackiew]

ATO is currently holding onto lots of people's super ( including some of mine ) and not paying it into their super funds - despite having all of the information needed to do this.

People affected are those who worked for companies who went into administration and paid out retrospectively a certain % in the dollar of monies owed to creditors. This money was handed over to the ATO who are currently sitting on it.

Apparently they will reimburse us whatever money we've lost from not having our money in our super funds ( hopefully ) earning for us. Which will be an interesting calculation that they needn't have done if they'd handed it over as soon as they received it. :mad:

[silentC]

Don't talk to me about super. My fund earned me $3000 odd last year. That didn't even cover admin fees, let alone contributions surcharge (a tax by any other name), and tax on earnings. If you're relying on super for when you retire, you'd better get used to Chum.

[outback]

Wer'e all doomed ,and the grim reaper is gonna come down on this thread and burn it.

In the mean time, regardless of your religious beliefs, if ya got 'em or not, if eveyone lived their lives using the ten commands as a basic set of rules the world would be a far better place.

P.S. I hate income tax, superannuation and workers comp.