saw stop inventor puts his finger into the blade

[mat]

Soundman

You say it won't stop kickback but it certainly goes a long way in that direction and indeed will stop kickback in many situations.
How, a well designed guard/riving knife that is well aligned means that users are likely to leave them in place unlike poor splitters that don't line up and are removed by users. There are also anti-kickback fingers as well as a separate riving knife to use for less than full thickness cuts. An easy change mechanism is also part of the design. A good fence with a well designed alignment system also reduces kickback. A zero clearance plate is standard.
Apart from the safety system this is a well designed and built machine -

why do so many people miss this!

I have no problem with a bucket... even after a spill it remains fully functional and requires no replacement parts.


As for the training......there are standard industrial procedures that are commonly expected.

Cutting damp wood presents no problem to any other wood working tool and as such, many operators may not be aware of the problem and many workshop owners who work mostly in dry timber may not have experienced the problem and there for not train for it.

Clasic example
you employ and experienced and very safe worker from a labour hire company and donet remember to tell him/her that the saw bench has a problem with wet timber or anything conductive.

so it cost you $500.

I not saying the whole thig is bad...... just that it isnt all sweetness and light and the be all of saw bench safety.....ofter all it wont stop kickback which is the most common dangerous action arround saw benches and the injuries from kickback are potentilay much worse than loss of a few fingers.

cheers

[QC Inspector]

Hi Soundman

On the 3rd you came into this discussion with in part "then consider the workplace idiots who inconsideratly of deliberatly trigger the function."

I would have to say that any employer that have workers that would act like that have far more serious issues to deal with than safety. I belong to a Union (was a shop steward and negotiator too) and we would revoke the membership ourselves and get rid of anyone that would be that irresponsible. So I don't for a second believe that to be an effective argument against the SawStop.

As for the need for special people to take the spare cartridge and blade off the shelf and put them on the saw. Are the same people needed to change the blade on a regular saw to switch from ripping to cross cutting and then to sheet goods? That would seem to indicate that your manufacturing is in a much sadder state than North Americas and that is frightening!

If you don't want to get or use a SawStop then don't. Those of us that have bought them, made our choice and for the most part don't run around telling you to junk your saw and come over to the 'Black Side".

It's a saw not a religion. But the shop is sacred.

[soundman]

Soundman you ignore SilentC's valid point that you ignore damage and 'replacement parts' to the sawyer, and now in this post you say there are standard industrial procedures for training but go on to argue that there really isn't that training in place because you forget to tell an employee that the saw has special requirements. So what is it to be? Either there is or isn't standard requirements for training. And why would it be so hard to modify the training manual to include the specifics of the machine?

Cheers
Michael

I do not ignore anything.
It is possible to claim the consequecnes of failure to act are worse than any unappropriate, poorly concieved or ineffective measure.
this premis is used daily to sell anything burgular to road safety campaigns.
It is not a valid argument it is an emotional plea, particularly where it is not the only alternative to a safe and suitable outcome.

World wide the saw bench is a well known item, its operation and risks are well known, the standard safety measures and equipment are well known and well standardised.
One would hope that apprentices and staff from labour hire companies would be well drilled on standard practice.
It is also likley that all the standard issues would be covered in any generic induction course or programe that the workplace may purchase.
Remember unless a staff member at a workplace holds a certicicate 4 in workplace training and unless the workplace has had its own induction course acredited it may not be able to conduct its own training.


the saw stop device is a novel device and is far from common in industrial workplaces, it is therefore not reasonable to expect it to be covered in standard training packages.

So you have a safe and competent worker from a labour hire company or a group apprenticship sceme, who has been drilled till standard practice is second nature and who would not dream of putting his fingers anywhere near a rotating blade on any machine and who has been told about sawstop, forgets and cuts a piece of damp wood, ot a piece of laminate with metal foil in it.....it just cost the employer a weeks wages.

But I cut this stuff on the panel saw this morning.

cheers

[soundman]

Soundman

You say it won't stop kickback but it certainly goes a long way in that direction and indeed will stop kickback in many situations.
How, a well designed guard/riving knife that is well aligned means that users are likely to leave them in place unlike poor splitters that don't line up and are removed by users. There are also anti-kickback fingers as well as a separate riving knife to use for less than full thickness cuts. An easy change mechanism is also part of the design. A good fence with a well designed alignment system also reduces kickback. A zero clearance plate is standard.
Apart from the safety system this is a well designed and built machine -

why do so many people miss this!

The saw stop device will not stop kick back. Fitting of riving knives and guards, and the like is a completely different issue, those devices are not novel nor are they patented.
In QLD you can not put a saw bench into an industrial workplace ( that is anywhere people are paid to work) with out standard safety features.
That is common and standard stuff.
A discussion of the quality of build is irreelivent as ther are a great many machines with standard safety features and good quality build.
My point of discussion is the point of difference and the novel and patented device.

cheers

[silentC]

OK, so your argument against the Sawstop consists of:

An employer may hire a temporary worker from a labour hire company (is this common practice?) and that employee may have received standard training in workplace safety and this training is assumed by the employer, yet he fails to tell the new employee about the Sawstop, or the new employee forgets and so goes ahead and cuts wet wood (why is it wet?) or a metal laminate. So therefore it is flawed technology.

Is that it? Sorry but I'm having trouble understanding your point, because it seems like a very minor issue to me with very little chance of it happening in reality but you are using it to dismiss the technology, so I'm obviously missing something from your explanation.

[soundman]

Hi Soundman

On the 3rd you came into this discussion with in part "then consider the workplace idiots who inconsideratly of deliberatly trigger the function."

I would have to say that any employer that have workers that would act like that have far more serious issues to deal with than safety. I belong to a Union (was a shop steward and negotiator too) and we would revoke the membership ourselves and get rid of anyone that would be that irresponsible. So I don't for a second believe that to be an effective argument against the SawStop.

As for the need for special people to take the spare cartridge and blade off the shelf and put them on the saw. Are the same people needed to change the blade on a regular saw to switch from ripping to cross cutting and then to sheet goods? That would seem to indicate that your manufacturing is in a much sadder state than North Americas and that is frightening!

If you don't want to get or use a SawStop then don't. Those of us that have bought them, made our choice and for the most part don't run around telling you to junk your saw and come over to the 'Black Side".

It's a saw not a religion. But the shop is sacred.

Now I can see that this product should have a big market in the US. Where use of saw benches without the normal or proper safety equipment seems to be well accepted.
Where well known role models can go on television week after week showing an industrial workplace (anywhere people are paid to work) where saw benches are used with out any form of guard or riving knife as a matter of routein and not be presecuted or corrected by viewers or sponsors.


In this country a large proportion of cabinet shops have been deunionised, and expecting the union to have any influence on an employers ability to hire and fire is just not realistic. As it currently stands unions do not even have full rights of entry in this country.(unless it has been recently changed).

Like it or not there are idiots who do this sort of thing, and under unfair dismissal rules you have quite some difficulty geting rid of them.
You would have to prove it was delibearte.
It is a real consideration.

In many industrial situations the process worker, tradesmans assistant, or apprentice , will not be allowed to replace a saw blade.

If you think all this is unreasonable, you should have a look at some of the workplace health and safety legeslation particularly in QLD and in europe.

and some of the individulal WHS polocy insisted upon by government and insurance companies.

It is a very common specification that safety measures and guards shall not be able to be disabled or removed by the user....this alone would rule out the device in some situations.

I am not telling anybody what to do, I am simply discussing the weaknesses of the product.

which are
It can not be instantly reset.

It has to be disabled for processes that would be common in many situations

Operation of the safety feature is costly and requires replacement of the tooling and additional parts.

The feature can be triggered by cutting wet or conductive material

The replacement parts are only available from one source and without the replacement parts the unit does not function.

The technology is available from only one source an therefore can not be fairly put out to tender or competitivly shopped.

These are all factors that need to be considered when looking at the product particularly if you are a corporate ir government user.

I weighed into this discussion only because no one else seemed to be mentioning the drawbacks.

I wont be replacing my saw bench anytime soon.

I will be very interested to see how the product goes in the market and if the technology gains any penetration past the semi-pro type cabinet saw currently available.

cheers

[blackhole]

The replacement parts are only available from one source and without the replacement parts the unit does not function.

The technology is available from only one source an therefore can not be fairly put out to tender or competitivly shopped.

So if anyone ever buys a sawstop table saw then they are completely controlled by the sawstoppers desire for profit. Sell your soul to save a finger!

[Gra]

So if anyone ever buys a sawstop table saw then they are completely controlled by the sawstoppers desire for profit. Sell your soul to save a finger!

might as well buy a festool then huh......

[dazzler]

Actually I now agree with soundman.

Like what if an alien arrived at the woodshop - they might try and saw some alien timber and that might set it off.

And what about goats - I cant tell you how many times ive caught those little buggers sawing away on saplings in me shed. You would need a warning sign in goat!.

I think soundman is right and your all wrong

[dazzler]

Hey brendan

Any idea how many have been triggered by wet wood, metal substrates, aliens or goats?

Come on, I know your hiding something

[mic-d]

Now I can see that this product should have a big market in the US. Where use of saw benches without the normal or proper safety equipment seems to be well accepted.
Where well known role models can go on television week after week showing an industrial workplace (anywhere people are paid to work) where saw benches are used with out any form of guard or riving knife as a matter of routein and not be presecuted or corrected by viewers or sponsors.


In this country a large proportion of cabinet shops have been deunionised, and expecting the union to have any influence on an employers ability to hire and fire is just not realistic. As it currently stands unions do not even have full rights of entry in this country.(unless it has been recently changed).

Like it or not there are idiots who do this sort of thing, and under unfair dismissal rules you have quite some difficulty geting rid of them.
You would have to prove it was delibearte.
It is a real consideration.

In many industrial situations the process worker, tradesmans assistant, or apprentice , will not be allowed to replace a saw blade.

If you think all this is unreasonable, you should have a look at some of the workplace health and safety legeslation particularly in QLD and in europe.

and some of the individulal WHS polocy insisted upon by government and insurance companies.

It is a very common specification that safety measures and guards shall not be able to be disabled or removed by the user....this alone would rule out the device in some situations.

I am not telling anybody what to do, I am simply discussing the weaknesses of the product.

which are
It can not be instantly reset.

It has to be disabled for processes that would be common in many situations

Operation of the safety feature is costly and requires replacement of the tooling and additional parts.

The feature can be triggered by cutting wet or conductive material

The replacement parts are only available from one source and without the replacement parts the unit does not function.

The technology is available from only one source an therefore can not be fairly put out to tender or competitivly shopped.

These are all factors that need to be considered when looking at the product particularly if you are a corporate ir government user.

I weighed into this discussion only because no one else seemed to be mentioning the drawbacks.

I wont be replacing my saw bench anytime soon.

I will be very interested to see how the product goes in the market and if the technology gains any penetration past the semi-pro type cabinet saw currently available.

cheers

It's time to be more eloquent with the argument



Cheers
Michael

Soundman, I think you a just trolling now!

[RETIRED]

Time gentlemen. I think that this thread been running long enough and has activated the emergency stop feature.