Overcharging Tradie...

[Batpig]

Dear Gents,

If you’re interested in the whole issue of trying to avoid getting ripped off by dishonest tradesmen, have a read of this one and give me your opinion. It is not meant in any way to be aimed at all tradesmen - just the ones that do the sort of thing described below. I don't expect that there are any such tradies on this Forum, because it would just be too out of character to shaft somebody by day, and then help somebody else out by night over the net on a Forum...

Anyway, the scenario is that my brother’s neighbour is in the process of renovating their house, and my brother has kindly agreed to allow access to the required machinery through his front and back yards to enable the neighbour to do so. In the course of watching the excavations being done, my brother arranged for the earthworks contractor to also do some digging in his yard too. The terms were $70/hr for just one man and the machinery, plus an extra $50/hr if a second man could turn up who would be able to load the truck with a Bobcat, and then take the load away, so that the first man could get on with the Drott-work. My sister-in-law kept an eye on proceedings over the course of the two days that it took to complete the work in their own yard, and categorically observed that whilst a second man did turn up for most of both days, he was simply standing around for at least 75% of the time, either talking on his mobile phone, or just relieving the fellow on the Drott whenever the guy needed a break. This was because the second guy didn’t seem to know enough about the gear to be able to load the truck with the Bobcat by himself, and he was quite slow on the Drott too, whenever he took the controls. It apparently looked a bit like the first guy was having to teach the second guy how to operate the gear whenever he handed over. Knock-off was at around 3.30 on both days...

Anyhow, at the end of the two days, the main fellow told my sister-in-law that the bill (even with an apparent 10% discount built-in, mind you) would come to $1740, with the subtle threat that it would have to be greater if an invoice was required.

Now, the number of hours that my brother is therefore being charged for both men is $1740 divided by $120/hr, which comes to14.5hrs - ie. Two whole days. The simple truth, though, is that only one of the men worked effectively for the two days, while the second guy did bugger all. My brother is therefore being overcharged by something in the region of at least $500 (ie. At least 10 useless hours for the second guy to stand around at $50/hr...)

The whole thing was done without a written quote or estimate of any sort, and my brother and I are now in the process of scratching our heads trying to work out how to actually dispute this thing. I rang the QBSA, and the woman who took the call was not only unhelpful, but also somewhat hostile. Anyway, she reckoned there was effectively nothing my brother could do except pay up, unless he wanted to risk throwing good money after bad...

Have any of you ever had something like this happen, and if so, what did you do about it?

Many Thanks,
Batpig.

[Rossluck]

You're going to hate me saying this, Batpig, but this is because you didn't get a quote for the job. I mean, I'm on your side, but watching people out the window isn't the way to judge the work or the price. You basically need to have someone in the business see the job and give you a quote. A good drott operator can move mountains in two days.

The fact that they were working next door means little. In the end you need to see how much they achieved over two days and how much stuff was taken away. A drott, a truck and a bobcat, and two men (on or off) over two days would start heading towards $2000 in my experience.

My advice: forget it and get a quote next time. Sorry.

[TermiMonster]

What he said
TM

[Batpig]

You're going to hate me saying this, Batpig, but this is because you didn't get a quote for the job.

Funny thing - I thought it had more to do with dishonesty by the Tradie. And it was my brother that it happened to, not me. I'm looking into it for him because he's a top guy who's helped a lot of people out in his life, and never screwed a single soul. He just too trusting by nature, because he's trustworthy himself.

I mean, I'm on your side, but watching people out the window isn't the way to judge the work or the price.

You're right. You instead just count the number of hours they work and multiply it by the quoted hourly rate...

You basically need to have someone in the business see the job and give you a quote.

This guy was driving a Drott and a Bobcat through my brother's yard, and digging up the neighbour's yard with them. He seemed to have the appearance of someone in the business...
He refused to give a firm quote because he said that he couldn't see how much rock might be below the surface. Must have sounded fair enough at the time...

A good drott operator can move mountains in two days.

And a bad one can still take two days to move less than a mountain...

The fact that they were working next door means little. In the end you need to see how much they achieved over two days and how much stuff was taken away.

Are you sure? I would have thought that in the end my brother needed to just multiply the number of hours worked by the quoted hourly rate...

A drott, a truck and a bobcat, and two men (on or off) over two days would start heading towards $2000 in my experience.

Two men - yes. One able man, with a rookie in tow on a mobile phone - No Way.

My advice: forget it and get a quote next time. Sorry.

I think that must be something like what the State Government counsellors say to rape victims in one room, while the free Legal Aid lawyers are working out how to get the Barstool off the hook in the other room...

Thanks Ross, and Best Wishes,
Batpig.

[Rossluck]

I didn't mean to get into an argument with you about it. I've been bitten by the same sort of thing, and the only solution is to get a quote for the job and then they can take as long as they want and it won't annoy you (or your brother).

But drotts are a serious machine that cost a fortune to buy and maintain, and suck diesel like Homer sucks beer (@ $165 a litre). Then there's the truck and the tyres and so on... The same but to a lesser degree for the bobcat.

I'm in the building industry, and if I don't turn over $1000 a day I could be in trouble. And I don't run a drott or a Bobcat. If I owned a drott and employed someone for two days to work with me, I'd be a bit shakey if I didn't recieve $1800. A plumber and a Bobcat operator recently dug a new drain for our septic system. They brought in two truckloads of gravel, used about $100 work of plumbing fittings, and the day cost me $2,400.

Don't let this eat you up. You should call the Drott operator and let him know how you feel. And as I said above, if you really want to push the point, ask another drott operator to come over and have a look at what was done, and ask him what he would charge. As a guide, Drott's get $500 to cut a house pad and they generally do three, and sometimes four a day. The simple rule of thumb is: the heavier the machine is the more it costs.

[autogenous]

Another tradie bashing thread about a bobcat driver who isnt exactly a tradesman.

When will people learn to distinguish between gross business revenue and wages.

Even though he is not a tradesman his loan repayments on the machinery alone are worth a bomb.

The issue with getting a quote on site works is that the driver has to guess. That means think of a number and double it.

Was the bloke on the phone speaking to his customers who were ringing about jobs?

Many Bobcat drivers are now $90+ an hour in Perth.

The word "rock" is not what you want to here when doing earth works.

[dazzler]

Pay for the main bloke and what you think the second bloke deserves. Detail why in a letter and leave it at that. If they choose to pursue you in the courts then decide if you are bothered or not. At worst pay the full amount before walking into court.

[dazzler]

Oh

and was someone driving the bobcat and tipping the stuff at the same time that the drott was working. Perhaps she saw the bloke only when he was out of the machine or truck.

[Christopha]

Pay the poor bugger you lousy sod!!!

[Batpig]

Sorry Autogenous. I couldn't get you up on Multi-quote but in response to your post, I honestly didn't mean it to be a Tradie-Basher. It was just pretty difficult to ask anyone (including Tradies) for advice without explaining something about the situation in the original post. As previously said, most Tradies here are probably decent guys because it's just too out of character for the bad guys to shaft by day, help out by night.

I'll also ask if any future posters can avoid any Tradie-bashing (and any Tradie posters can avoid Customer-bashing), because it certainly just degrades the whole thing into a mud-sling along the moronic lines of Christopha's post, whereas I'm just trying to find a solution for my brother.

Pay for the main bloke and what you think the second bloke deserves. Detail why in a letter and leave it at that. If they choose to pursue you in the courts then decide if you are bothered or not. At worst pay the full amount before walking into court.

Thanks Dazzler. Only constructive reply to the original question asked so far.

Oh

and was someone driving the bobcat and tipping the stuff at the same time that the drott was working. Perhaps she saw the bloke only when he was out of the machine or truck.

No - as stated in my first and second posts, the second guy was standing around for at least 75% of the time and certainly wasn't independently operating the Bobcat or driving the Truck, which was the stated scenario under which the extra $50/hr was to be paid. The small amount of time that he operated the machinery was mainly spent under the close supervision of the first guy. Probably an ex-concretor moving over into earthworks...

Best Wishes Guys,
Batpig.

[TermiMonster]

From where I sit (a long way away), your brother did his neighbour a favour allowing access, not the contractor. As far as the contractor is concerned it is just another job. Many trades have off-siders who have to be there for part of the job, but you can't just employ someone to come for an hour in the morning, go away for two hours, then come back between 11.30 and 12.00, etc.
The contractor had to pay him a full day, and so does your brother. The price, from all reports is fair (if not cheap).
Pay up.
TM

[Batpig]

I dunno Termi, maybe I'm not making myself clear enough. The extra $50/hr was for a second man going full time on either a Bobcat or Truck, not just standing around...

If the main fellow got the job on the basis of what seemed to be a fairish rate, is it then fair at the end of the job to depart from that rate when levelling the bill? Would you like to pick up a Watermelon at Woolies because it was marked 99c/kg, and then get home and find that they had charged you $1.49/kg instead?...

Anyway, as it turns out from talking with my sister-in-law last night, the guy was also doing work next door during the course of the two full days for which my brother is being charged... So my brother will actually have to pay for 2 guys for 2 days, when what he actually got was 1 guy for somewhat less than 2 days.

And to top it off, it turns out that the neighbours are in dispute with him too because they reckon he's been "going" them as well!

But fair enough with your comments. Just try to remember it's about having trouble with one Tradie, not all of them. It can't be that surprising can it? You get bad eggs in all walks, don't you?

Thanks Termi,
Batpig.

[Pheonix]

If he wants access next time charge him the same rates!

[dazzler]

Im with you batpig. Sounds like thier crooks.

Get your brother to liaise with the neighbour and work out just whos paying for what and how many times they are getting paid.

Thing to remember is if they are sure they are being ripped, pay for what is fair and let it go to the small claims court. No lawyers needed and the worst case scenario is you end up paying the original cost if you lose.

Most crooks wont go to court anyway.

And before any tradies get upset, remember its the bad apples that reflect on all of us.

[rhancock]

I've been a tradie or worked for one, or lived with one, for all my life, and most of the people you meet are good people, but the dodgy ones take advantage of those customers who don't want to take the time to research a good price, make the effort to get a few quotes, get recommendations from friends, build relationships with tradies, oh, and pay GST. If they did, they'd have the protection of the authorities (QBSA etc).

You took the risk, you pay the price. Next time, I'll recommend a good worker for you.

By the way, I recently paid just over $2000 for two blokes to work all day, most of it with one guy standing watching the other working. I didn't watch them work, I asked them to quote for a job I needed doing, and because they know me, and know I'm a good customer and will recommend them to others (I've recommended them to forumites in the past) they charged me less than the quote.