The old saga Renovate or Rebuild

[neverquiteright]

G'day Folks,

In my research whilst deciding to removate my place or rebuild I have seen this question asked a few times......and mostly the advice is rebuild but I think I can work around the arguments to knock down and rebuild....maybe I am just trying to convince myself because I fancy the experience of a major reno.

The house is about 80 years old, has 2 bedrooms, a lounge room, a dining room, kitchen, laundry, toilet and 2 bedrooms. The roof is old ceramic tile which will clean up well but looks pretty poor at the moment. The exterior is fibro/asbestos. The foundations are brick piers. The drive is too long and is covered in what looks like crushed concerete which runs up to a fibro garage.

The block is a good size and the house is basically well positioned on the block. The house is an "L" shape and is too small for our growing family. We need more room as the dining room is now being used as a bedroom.

I want to extend the house without losing any of the usuable garden as the drive is too long and a waste of space.

I am thinking about building an L shaped extension which will consist of a new bedroom beside the existing lounge room which would use the driveway space, build a double garage in front of that bedroom and then build another bedroom beside the garage which will make the building a rectangle.

I also want to take down a load bearing wall in the kitchen between the kitchen and laundry to make one big kitchen. I also want to take down a load bearing wall between the lounge room and dining room to create a big lounge/diner. Throw in some new patio doors to the garden, clad the old fibro in the polystyrene render sytem which saves having to remove the asbestos, adds insulation and creates a schmick finish. If money provides also do the entire roof in colourbond.

This would give me a very modern exterior, the layout I want, uses redundant space without damaging the garden, the extension wont look like and add on as all the render and roof will match and will look like a bespoke house rather than the off the plan boring show house.

My brother made the point that if I sold it and potential buyers got an inspection done the report will still say that half of the house is very old. My inspection 12 months ago told me that but it also said the house was solid and the frame has a lot of life left yet?????? Would a report like that put buyers off????

Any thoughts or suggestions will be gratefully recieved.

[journeyman Mick]

....maybe I am just trying to convince myself because I fancy the experience of a major reno. ...............

Imagine living in dirt, dust and constant noise for 6 months or more. Having your wife ring you at work complaining that her clothes have gotten dusty/dirty/wet, that there's no working bathroom or toilet for a few days/weeks/months, that your yard is filled with stacks of building materials and piles of demolition waste, that you end up having to send the family off to relatives/a motel/on holidays because they can't stand it any longer/because she's threatened divorce, having your boss give you a hard time because you spend so much time on the phone trying to sort out problems with the builder/your family. Not something you really want to spend big $$ on if you can avoid it, I'd say.

Mick

[rat52]

Sounds like you have given this a lot of thought so go for it. But plan it step by step and try to do it in stages. Small bites as it can be overwhelming if you try to do it in one bite.

As for the old section having lots of life compared to the new part, so what, It is the whole that people look at.

[jags]

hi neverquitright

i think thats the million dollar question ?

I am now at the final stages of my second reno first was a 2 bed apartment and the second is now a four bed two toilet one bathroom double brick house on 560 squares .
If you have or want a life ,have or want a wife ,have or want friend that you like to see don't do it . If none of these apply and you have endless spare cash go for it . It is very rewarding but extremely hard to do well and from my expriences a renovation to live in is very different to one you are going to just on sell .
The house that i am about to finish is almost 40 year old and i had to rewire , re plumb and re roof ,remove two walls add one wall ,remove the old laundry concrete floor to make a new kitchen ,re floored it and that was before i could start on the inside . So i wonder what state your would be in if it is 80 years old ?
i found that structual work seems to take the most time and holds up the rest of the job

the one most important thing is will you be over capitalising if you reno it ? and can you afford to do it ?
I budgeted about $60,000 and it cost me about $80,000 after 6 month of extra morgage repayments .
i think the best way to work it out is to find out what it would cost to biuld a new house and then what it will cost to reno add 10% to the reno budget work out what your hourly rate is worth and the hours it will take and add this the the reno budget and you should now have your answer .
This being said the satisfaction that you get at the end from renovating is amasing .
best of luck
Rob

[Bleedin Thumb]

I'm in the same boat. 2 bed house & just had the third kid. Big block - house is OK as Ive done the kitchen and everything is smart enough not to be embarrassing.

I've budgeted $250K ..but Ive got a sloping block and want a double garage & workshop 2 extra bedrooms, study, bathroom and hallway for that.

That's building an extra wing if you like. To go up it was $180K but we would only get the bedrooms and bathroom for that.

I looked (still am) at buying something else and all the places need work anyway and once you factor in stamp duty and estate agent fees we decided its better to maximize the potential of our place instead of paying for the ease of someone else having done it for us.

Well this is my rational...not my wife's

[chromis]

Doesnt the fact that it's fibro/asbestos worry you at all? I wouldnt do a reno on one.

[chromis]

We didnt have a ceiling for quite a while...When the new one was put in I missed looking at the rafters....

I have a temp kitchen in a small back room, I cook on a BBQ, I'm washing dishes in the laundry and I'm splattered in white paint as I type this.

Maybe get your wives involved in the reno and they won't complain as much?

[Ashwood]

I think this is a question only you can decide whether good or not.

We extended instead of rebuild. Built the extension, then broke through to old house only around midway, then had temporary doors seal the opening until about 3/4 way through. Then it got a bit messy. But we're glad we did it.

Some considerations.

- Do you have an alternative place to live in if you rebuild. If not, then factor in the cost of rental for rebuild.

- How bad is the existing house. Are you happy with what can be done within your budget (or can it be done easily later on if current budget is difficult)?

- Have you confirmed it's asbestos? The asbestos sheets themselves are not that difficult for the experts to remove because they are generally non-friable (remain intact within the sheets), however, they are fragile and it's where they break /crumble that may cause some fibres to come loose - so see how much the areas cover and whether they will be disturbed. If not removed/undisturbed, asbestos is not a problem. Asbestos removal contractors charged a bomb.

- how will the extension roof work? can it be a separate roof, or need to redo your existing roof? The latter exposes you to the elements, and can be a big hassle.

- does building on the driveway totally block access from front to rear garden? It's good to have a convenient way of bringing soil, etc to the rear. I did the same, by building my garage nearer the front, and have a door at the rear of my new garage.
If it blocks totally, you may want to rebuild to have a better positioning of the house on the block.

- have you got a quote for the reno option? Reno is always more costly per sq m, cause more time, thinking & wastage to customize. Rebuild via project home companies is always cheaper due to mass /standardization.

- lastly, the big $$$ question. If you can't afford to rebuild, then reno is by default the better option. You can also do your work in phases - either do sections by sections, or for some areas, just do the structure & roof, then fill in the additional bits in stages as budget permits.

Hope this helps your review process.

[sports fan]

were doing renovations/ additions to a house in sydney northshore area.. contract price is $450000 the bank would only lend them $300000 because the bank thought they were overcapitalising, the client came up with the reamaining $150000 from savings and other family...

what im trying to say is some people dont mind over capitalising if they like the existing house and their intending on staying there long term, but if your doing as a money spinner work out a careful budget you will stick to

[Morr1e]

yeah thats what I think, how can you over capitalise when you are planning on living there for a long time? eventually your house is going to be worth a lot more than the reno costs. I to was tossing up whether to rebuild or reno but it would cost us around $200,000 to rebuild a new house and we can fix up the existing house and add a 9 sq extention for around $100,000. So we decided to renovate. We don't want to sell and buy another becasue we like the position and like our neighbours etc.

[Justin]

Here's a copy of a post that I did on another forum, relating to this topic (can't be assed fully typing out another post at the moment) :

Given the scale of your project, unless you have a full-on period home or have heritage issues, I'd seriously think about bulldozing and building a new house on your block.

We went down a similar path - 1948 post war home, no redeeming period features. Just a 3 bedroom 12-ish square salmon brick, steel frame windowed unremakable house.

We engaged an award winning architect and came up with a plan to gut the interior, put four bedrooms upstairs and make downstairs all living area. Then the plans went to a quantity surveyor to be priced up..........and we were horified with the figure that came back, which was way over the budget that we briefed to the architect.

So went went to a few builders to get a tender budget based on the schematic plans that had been produced. Some of them weren't even prepared to quote, others quoted high enough to discourage us. We got some realism from builders that were specialist renovators, and that realism was that there are too many unknowns in a large scale reno. Those unknowns translated into exclusions and/or allowances on the quote, not firm prices.

Ultimately, we've figured that building a new 35 square place will cost us around 100k less than extending in the way that we originally planned. Plus, the floor plan isn't constrained by your existing place, and you get the builders guarantee and the happiness of everything being shiny-new. No joins of old and new plaster, no patchwork roof, no old vs new floorboards - the list goes on.

We found a builder that could adapt one of their existing designs to our plans - and do some value add as well in terms of the layout. Right now we're about a week from frame completion, and whilst building a house is no cakewalk, we're happy we made this decision, and with what we'll end up with.

I fully concur with Mick, living in a reno environment is nasty ( speaking from experience - twice). We did it when we didn't have kids, I couldn't imagine doing it with kids around, the smaller they are the worse it'll be.

A mate from work did a reno whilst his wife was pregnant. His toddler now has problems with asthma and eczema (no family history) and he reckons it's because of the building dust that his other half was exposed to whilst the baby was in-utero.

I guess it depends upon the scope of works, and your budget. If either are sufficiently high then I'd say there's a good case for rebuilding. One last thing - doing a major reno in stages might be attractive from a budgeting perspective, but in my view it's an inefficient use of time and resources.

Good luck whichever way you go.


Cheers,


Justin.

[Morr1e]

good post but my circumstance is different. You said building a new house would cost you 100k less then renovating. My reno will be 100k cheaper than rebuilding. Rebuilding was our first option but out budget says renovate

[journeyman Mick]

good post but my circumstance is different. You said building a new house would cost you 100k less then renovating. My reno will be 100k cheaper than rebuilding. Rebuilding was our first option but out budget says renovate

How did you arrive at your figures?

Mick

[billbeee]

Hi neverquiteright,
Where I live we are in an older suburb that has fairly generous block sizes, with lots of new work going on all the time.
The fact that the house is 80 years old make me think your area could be similar.
If you sell it and move, for the same money you could go to a less desirable or worse suburb.
We currently have maybe a couple of houses bulldozed a year with new modern places replacing them.

We also have many TV reno show inspired bodge ups. My next door neighbour is a structural engineer who specialises in doing the inspections for real estate deals. He makes a good living delving through the various layers "fixer ups", "add ons" and dubious improvements for his inspection reports. It is almost unheard of for him to give a clean bill of health to one of these the first go. Invariably tradesmen have to be got in and things sorted out, or the owner drops his price and another hopeful takes over.

There is a better option if you have the room. I have done a couple myself and seen plenty more really well done almost separate additions.

I'd be looking at hardly touching the old house, but building something completely new. That way you can get something that will give you the extra room and each dollar you spend goes directly to adding value. The design and certification is easy.

At a later date you can sell, or bulldoze the old place, and finish your project.

Otherwise, as has been said, an eighty year old fibro house with no special heritage value? Send it to the dump!

[barney118]

I have been renovating for the last 5 years my 1950ish house (weatherboard) I has some character and I am levering off that character and moderising inside.
When I first bought my "reno's delight" I have been working in stages and getting somewhere now. First the bathroom, paint inside and polish the floorboards, built ins. I then built a deck off the back and nearly finished the roof extension (trusses) and will fill in later. The kitchen is down the track as it is a 3 bed at the moment and I havent even started downstairs huge area. I have poured some cash into it and I am still happy that it will end up the way i wanted it, as time goes on you get more ideas etc. My roof was old zinc and is now colorbond finally with building blanket.
The point I will make is how structurally sound is your place now? I didnt have one crack in the cornices or walls (besides paintwork) it is all hardwood framing (which now include numerous drills that have died in thier holes, can I class the timber are now steel reinforced?). How many friends do you know have had a house built within the last 10yrs and have cracks etc? I can name a few, as the foundations are slapped together, plantation pine (how good is it?) do you currently have 9ft ceilings - whats the cost for that extra 10% in height of a new house comapred to 2.4m celings.

Removing walls is quite simple and relatively cheap with the help of new lintles. I had the truss guys design my girder truss to take the old hip and whole back of the house out 9m wide. The roof extension of 4m x 9m was $3000k for the truss work and side lintles (LVLs) plus costs already absorbed with posts etc. Eventually I will have a L shaped room 8m x 9m and 6m.

As I stared to get to the point of no return I was asking myself the same questions thinking of bricking up the house too with foundations around the house etc. The under section of my house is single brick piers and I will face some challenges to make into a habitable roon as there is no damp course.

I have 3 young kids and depending on your site there will be extra costs/time for the price of safety to keep them a way from you work etc it comes down to the size of the job undertaken at the time and they love helping (painting) the final one comes down to helping hands/ time to do the job, prices remain pretty steady, whats the price now vs later.

You are obviously going to have to pay to get rid of the asbestos sheeting ouside if you demolish or blueboard over the top and render. My building report was pretty ordinary as the point out the obvious and now I have gained some experience I find myself a better judge of structural integrity combined with a few Aussie stds to understand the rest.