Advice need on floor polishing finish

[roddy]

Hi, we have just been allowed back in our house today after the floors have been professionally sanded and polished. It is a Grey Box timber floor, with a gloss poly finish.

We noticed tonight when we were inspecting it that it has tiny scratches in a large circular pattern, pretty much throughout the whole floor, that you can see quite clearly under lights and in the sun.

I suppose my question is, is this normal on a gloss floor? If not, how should my phone call go with the company who did it?!! I'm not sure what I should be demanding, or if in fact this commonly happens with floor finishes.

It really is disappointing - the floor is the main feature in our house, and with the expense of replacing the old floor, I really expected a perfect job.

Advice?

Roddy

[Evan Pavlidis]

Roddy,

they are sanding marks left over by the sanding machine; they should not be there at all . These "professionals" did not go the full boar using finer grits to eliminate the small swirl marks. Get them back to fix it; you paid top dollar for a professional job and they are liable. Their work must be guaranteed. If they refuse there are consumer laws (you know what that means ).

I installed strip flooring at my parents house last May and there is not a scratch mark to be seen.
I am not boasting here nor am I a floor sander, but I did ensure not to leave any sanding marks by using finer grits of paper and worked on it as if it were a piece of furniture.
Keep us informed how things work out.

Cheers, Evan

[artme]

As Evan says, get them back. The final sandind shoul have been done with a drum sander along the length of the boards with finer grits. Around the skirting bourds shoul have been done with a random orbital sander where the drum didn't cover.

[orraloon]

Roddy,
You are in for some big time disruption. To sand out the marks is a bigger job than the first time round. It will have to be sanded back to bare wood and start again. I am not advocating you let the slack bu&&ers off with it but be aware what is involved. You and the family will have to be out when they sand back the polly. I would be calling them and have the boss and or manager come and look at the floor then ask if that is the expected standard. Take it from there. If you have not paid yet then hang on to the money as a leaver to get things happening. You will most likely have to resort to consumer affairs to prod them along. It is not an easy thing to stay calm when dealing with this kind of situation but polite and firm is the way to go and if possible have someone as a witness with you if you talk face to face with any of them. I hope you get a good result.

Regards
John

[roddy]

Thanks for your responses.

The company is sending the guys who did it back this afternoon to have a look. I was told that they will buff and do the top coat again only, and we will only need to be out of the house for a day. Now I'm worried we're being fed a line.

As it is, we have moved all our furniture back, so we are going to have to shift it all AGAIN. Such a pain, but the floors are for life, and they need to be done properly.

Thanks again, and I will keep you posted.

Roddy

[Evan Pavlidis]

Thanks for your responses.

The company is sending the guys who did it back this afternoon to have a look. I was told that they will buff and do the top coat again only, and we will only need to be out of the house for a day. Now I'm worried we're being fed a line.

As it is, we have moved all our furniture back, so we are going to have to shift it all AGAIN. Such a pain, but the floors are for life, and they need to be done properly.

Thanks again, and I will keep you posted.

Roddy

Roddy,

if the swirl marks are on the finish then a good buff/sand with fine grit abrasive and a top coat will fix things up; but if the swirl marks are on the timber surface they did not sand thouroughly to remove swirl/scratch marks in preparation to apply the finish.
If the latter is correct then the finish will need to sanded off completely to bare timber and the process starts from the beginning working through the grits.

Hope things work out for you and if you have not paid them yet, don't until they have completed the job the way it should be.

[roddy]

After the sanders/polishers inspected the floors, we got an apology and thankfully, they only need to buff and add one more coat.

Now we have to move out and move all of our furniture again (oh joy).

Yes, we have paid the full balance, but it looks like they are going to do the right thing.

Thanks for all the advice, and I'll let you know how it turns out on Friday!

Roddy.

[bnpenty]

Hi Roddy,

I reckon one way or another you're ok here, if the sanding marks are clearly visible no company worth it's salt will risk it's reputation by not fixing it up. On the other hand were they cowboys? was there a rush on? were they using apprentices etc?

I agree with Evan, and if the marks are not in the timber it's not such a big job to fix. Maybe you could check this out before contacting them. Also I'd again check what my options are re redress first

Cheers, Nick

[roddy]

Well the news isn't good I'm afraid - we've come back after 3 days away - the sanders/polishers have been and apparently buffed and applied a new topcoat, but the scratches are still clearly visible, and in fact, the floor looks the same as it did before.

We are at our wits end now. We have moved our furniture FOUR times now, we have found a place to stay TWICE and now it looks like we will have to do it again?? All with a young baby in tow - not fun.

The boss man of the company is coming on Tuesday morning to have a look - I will wait and see what he says - but I have a feeling we will be out for another week while they sand it all back and start again.

Any thoughts? Should we be asking for part refund as well, or accommodation expenses?

Roddy

[Dusty]

I wrote this reply the other day, but by the time I posted it you had already said that the guys were coming back to re-coat it, so I removed my post.

The marks your refering to are caused by the screens used to cut back the floor between coats, these screens are designed to put gazillions of fine scratches into the existing coat so that the subsequent coat can adhere to it. Without these scratches the coats would just simply peel off, this is referred to as delamination, and, you don't want that.

These fine scratches are dramatically highlighted by 12 volt lighting systems glaring down on a high gloss finish. Also, the darker timber species tend to highlight it even more.

Here's what to do: As much as it's annoying you, but learn to live with it for a short while, as over time, both the timber and the coating will oxidize, which is, darken in the presence of UV light and those scratches will all become invisible.

Now that you have had another coat applied it might even be a tad worse than what it was after the initial three coats were laid, as the more coats and the deeper the gloss the more the 12 volt lights reflect the scratches. Bit of a vicious circle really.

If the rest of the sanding work is up to snuff than my advice is to relax and enjoy your lives.

[Extracare]

It's hard to comment without seeing the floor, or at least pics of it, but it sounds like Dusty is right. These are the scratches made by the sanding screen that is used between coats.

Mt bet would be that you have bright downlights and low ceilings. These lights show up the scratches beneath the top coat and in a high gloss floor are pretty much unavoidable on a dark timber.

I did one recently that looked fantastic, but at night under the downlights you could see the same scratches you refer to. I had used a 220 grit screen and sanded the 2nd coat with nearly no pressure whatsoever.

Live with it if you can, it will improve with time, and avoid having them back again because a second fix-up is where things start to go really badly.

If you have to look hard to see them then rest assured that no visitors or guests will ever notice them.

[Connollys]

Excellent post Dusty, just add to it once you defuse the light with curtains and furniture the cobweb effect will diminish and as stated after a while they will be almost invisible. Timber floors are not furniture so you never expect a furniture finish. The expectation of quality of the finish is always different from customer to customer so if you have high expectations then always get tradesman that come well referred and have been in the trade for a long time, and cheap usually means cheap. Im not trying to say this is the case in this instance just these are the best way to get the best results. If you are still not happy with the floor you can have it inspected by the ATFA but be aware this is not a free service and if you only have some cobweb in the coating they may find in the sanders favour. I wish you all the best and hope you get a satisfactory result

Cheers

[Gooner]

Without seeing what you mean it is hard to say. Generally I think what Dusty is saying is right, however, you said you are seeing it under sunlight as well.

I did my floor last year and used a small orbital sander between coats, not a buffer with screen as many pros do. I finished the floor with a 2 pack glossy finish. The floors came out great and am very happy with it.

However, with downlights I can see "rings" in the reflection of the light. BUT, only at night and under the right conditions. I am 100% sure I do not have swirls in the wood because I was pedantic in performing the final sand with a small orbital sander. (I like to punish myself).

I do not see these swirls in sunlight. If the swirls are appearing under sunlight then I would think that the sanders left the swirls on the timber during the last sanding pass with the buffer. Alternatively, they may have overdone it (or used too coarse a grit) on the sanding between coats.

When sanding my floors I was suprised to the many opinions as to what grade grit to use between coats. Some "pros" recommended 120 grit screen on a buffer and others said not to go lower than 180. I used 220 grit. I tried 120 grit screen on a buffer and found it was way too harsh for sanding between finishing coats. 120 grit screen on the buffer left large circular swirls all over the floor. 220 grit on an orbital sander (rather than the buffer) left very small circular scratches that was sufficient for adhesion of the next coat. It did not leave big circular swirls.

Grab a torch at night and shine it on the floor. By moving the torch around you will be able to better tell if the "circular patterns" are being produced by fine scratches in the finish or in the wood.

Unfortunately, sanding it all back means taking another 1-2mm from the wood. The floor only has a finite number of sanding cycles in it. This in itself is worth something. You can only take so much from the floor before the wood becomes susceptible to splitting or expose the tongues and grooves. (Drum sanding is harsh on the floor.)

Personally, if the scratches weren't too bad, I would live with it and demand a discount rather than having it done again. If they stuffed it up the first time I wouldn't trust them to get it right the second time.

I would be interested to hear how it all pans out.

[roddy]

Thanks so much for all the responses. This really is a great forum.

Yes, the markings were definitely visible in any light and there was no way we could live with them - they drove me completely nuts in three weeks and I would have been a blithering mess in a year!

The good news is the 'boss' of the company came to see us (though we had to wait 2 weeks for the privilege) and he sent his guys back for a third time to fix it. And on the third attempt, they did. I understand they buffed and applied another coat only. Said it had something to do with the hardness of the varnish (??) and that is was something that "happened sometimes" and was "bad luck". Hmmmm. I was confused. We went for semi gloss this time, and the finish is great. No scratches or marks! So after moving out 3 times and shifting our furniture 6 times, we finally have an end product we are happy with.

Thanks Craig for your comments too - you sold us the timber!

Roddy