More Sorry Suggestions

[astrid]

goodo, jackE what is your experience, and what books have you read.
we're talking about the stolen generation here, not individual opinions.
astrid

[jow104]

All colonials are welcome back, I will meet them off the boat if necessary.

[bitingmidge]

Having lived where Jack lives in the fifties and early sixties, although i was just a kid, I lived with "stolen" kids, in fact some of them used to stay with us on their way home to visit their parents - yep, they weren't all incarcerated.

I also lived with kids who weren't "stolen".

I have to say if there was any angst among the kids that i knew, they hid it well. That is not to say that some weren't treated badly or harshly, nor that the whole thing wasn't immensely wrong or at best misguided, but a lot of books have been written by people who weren't there.

A lot of white kids were treated badly and harshly in those days too, often by their own parents.

There are a couple of pics from the late 50's that I have that are a bit relevant, but I'm guessing you blokes with your book learnin' won't spot the stolen kids. I'm not being cryptic, and I'm not going to explain, but you're welcome to check out the first batch I've uploaded:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bitingm...7603668260915/

Cheers,

P

[Jack E]

Astrid,

The thing with books is that they are mostly written to express a point of view from one side.
I think the apology needs to be clarified.
If there is proof of a stolen generation, then it should be possible to track down those DIRECTLY affected by it an issue an apology to them only.

Cheers, Jack

[astrid]

JackE ' I think that has already been done.
have you gone to the library and read any books, keith windshuttle is on your side, have you bothered to read him?
and midge , we are talking about those stolen by the government, and hence the apology.Have you read any books midge?
Just to show my unbias on this, there was a land owners daughter in heywood,vic
who amused herself with writing local histories in the 1960'6 and 70's.
She wrote a whole book on the wars, and stolen generation before it became mainstream,
her name was Vanda Saville, and you may get her books through the local historical society.
I wont vouch for accuracy, but it exists.

Astrid

astrid

[Jack E]

Are you a librarian or do you own a book shop?
How about experience?

How do you know what "my side" is?

My side is not whether what the government did at the time is morally correct or incorrect.

My argument is that everything done was within the laws at the time and consequently no apology is justified.

Simple really.

Cheers, Jack

[bitingmidge]

Astrid, some of my best friends were "stolen". I've met kids who had a fearful time, and kids who had the opportunity of their life.

I know white kids who were sent away to boarding school in the fifties at age 6 not to return to their properties till they'd finished high school nine years later. Their suffering was no less than many. It was a common thing in those days. It's the whole cultural context which gets ignored from this whole argument.

Bloody labour government. It was them that did it you know!

Have I read books? No.

I have no wish to read them. I was there. I've sung songs, I've heard them sung. I've cried real tears too.

but I still don't need to apologise.

P

[astrid]

Oh hello, (not you midge, i'll get to you later)
what the nazi's did to the gypsies, homosexuals and Jews, was within the law at the time,
when it happens in living memory, are you too small to appologise, or in this case let your government apologise on your ancestors behalf.
Shame on you

Astrid

[Jack E]

What the Nazi's did was, in their view, for the betterment of the Nazi's.
What happened to the "stolen generation", in the view of the government of the time, was for the betterment of the "stolen generation"

I consider your comparasin of genocide to our "stolen generation" a great insult to the jews, gays and gypsies of Europe in WWII.

Cheers, Jack

[journeyman Mick]

OK,
here's my take on it.
Please note: I haven't read any books at all on the subject. My knowledge and views on the subject comes from a quarter of a century of personal experience. It includes my first experience of working at a local community, with one of the older ladies putting her arm around me during morning tea and saying "You know Michael, we glad you got this job, us coloured folks got to stick together"
I have several small indigenous communities a few minutes drive from my home and a larger one about 40 minutes away, flat out in our rural fire truck.
I have spent a bit of time on other, larger indigenous communities in the region
I have worked for/with/on some of these communities.
I have worked at an indigenous alcohol rehab centre
I have worked at the local high school which has a high percentage of indigenous students
I've worked at a school for indigenous students
I've seen a lot of potential but I've seen a hell of a lot of grief, misery, squalor and hopelessness.

Sometimes when I see what happens I really believe that in many cases many kids would be far better off away from their home environment, away from the alcohol, the petrol sniffing, the paint sniffing ("chroming") laundry detergent eating (yes, it really happens) the physical abuse, the pack rapes of chlldren, the environment of violence and fear, the poor hygiene, the malnutrition, the home environment that doesn't support or encourage reading or education, all the crap that no kid in Austalia in this day and age should endure.

I don't know what the motivation was for the forced removal of children from their families, but I do know that knowing what I know and seeing what I've seen, that if I had the power to take kids out of this environment and place them in one where they could be nurtured and educated I'd do so. So flame me.

Another interesting point, I heard Noel Pearson (Indigenous leader, with the Cape York Institute) talking on the radio. He was talking about the "victim mentality" and the fact that many indigenous organisations had painted the picture of their people as victims as a strategic move in order to win concessions/money/whatever from the government. He said that in many cases it had been succesful but that the price was that their people had come to see themselves as victims. Victims are passive, they don't "do" they wait for someone to "do" for them. He contrasted this with the Jewish people who endured an intense and murderous persection during WWII and for ceturies prior to this. They however, did not identify themselves as victims but did ensure that their persecution was not allowed to be forgotten.

I've had a pretty tough time for the last decade, not being persecuted but caring for an ailing wife who finally succumbed to brain tumours last year. For that entire time I toughed it out and never allowed myself to feel sorry for myself and the situation I was in. Just recently I allowed myself to do so as part of the "grieving process". Bloody hell, that was almost harder than what had happened prior. I allowed myself to be a "victim", feel sorry for myself and I sunk into clinical depression. I've clawed my way out and I can tell you that being a "victim" doesn't do you any good at all.

What is considered to be a wise course of action today may be looked back on in 50 years time as very unenlightened. I got the cane when i was a kid. My parents skills weren't as warm and fuzzy as many of today's parents are. I was spanked, belted and yelled at. I was seldom, if ever, encouraged. There's a whole heap of things in my upbringing I could identify and say "well, I don't think that was the best way to do it and I'd do it better". Should I spend the rest of my life moaning that I've been hard done by and expect my parents to apologise for not doing a better job? I think I've been better served by getting on with life and making the best of things.

Will an apology help indigenous people solve their problems? And it's they who need to come up with the solutions to the problems, not because they created the problems - because they didn't. But because they're the only ones that can create real and enduring solutions and that's what they need, not apologies.

Mick
(the soapbox orator)

[Jack E]

Spot on Mick.
I think the best thing would be if we all just called each other "Australian"
No black, white, islander aboriginal or any other name.

Cheers, Jack

[astrid]

HOW many times do I have to say this, we are not talking about individual cases,
we are supposed to be talking about an apology to the generation that were for political reasons, taken from there parents and families because they were half black,
Sorry is a small word, but apparently only big people can say it.
Sometimes i think that some people are politicising this, for there own trivial self interest,

Astrid

[Jack E]

Sorry is a small word, but apparently only big people can say it.

That statement implies that we all AGREE an apology is necessary but are too small to say sorry.
You don't seem to be able to comprehend that not everybody believes we should say sorry.
I am not too small to say sorry, if I believe an apology is justified.

Sometimes i think that some people are politicising this, for there own trivial self interest,

or the interest of a political party, such as kevin dudd, our short term leader

Cheers, Jack

[Greg Ward]

Most Australians are city based. They get their 'learnin' from books.

For these, 'Sorry' it is an emotional thing, an easy way to get out of having to really do anything of consequence.

Most city folks who agree with 'the sorry' dont know any aborigonals, have never met any aboriginals, have hardly seen them, have never been to the outback or even Purfleet, wouldn't have any knowledge of their problems or any solutions either: saying sorry makes them feel good.

It achieves little else.

I guess the debate does generate awareness of problems in our society, but I admit to being confused......I thought Mal Brough was doing a great job, assisting in the NT but I must have been wrong as he wasn't re-elected.

Greg

[Gingermick]

Perhaps you can explain how and why saying sorry will help

Symbolic reconciliation