Briggs & Stratton mower motors

[Batpig]

Dear Chaps,

Would any of you happen to know something technical about some of the higher-end Briggs & Stratton lawnmower motors?

It looks like it might well be time to replace my venerable more-than-20-year-old Sukuki-2-stroke-powered Rover with a "newie", and since you can't buy a 50:1, 2-stroke on an alloy mulching base brand-new, I'm going to have to go for a 4-stroke...

Besides bugger-all moving parts inside 2-strokes in general, a cast-iron cylinder sleeve in the Suzy was one of the main secrets to it's longevity. I am therefore wanting to get a mower with a sleeved motor.

In the Honda range, that's an $890 exercise if you want to mulch. For less money, there is a Rover or two, and a Masport or three, that seem to fit the bill, but I need to know a bit more about the specific differences between the various B&S motors. The motors I am interested in are the Quantum series, and the Intek series.

Regarding the Quantum series, does anyone know the difference between an XM, XTS, and IC, as in which ones are sleeved? (I believe that the IC industrial/commercial versions at least are)

Regarding the OHV Inteks (which seem to be a riposte to the Honda motors), are there two types - sleeved and unsleeved - just as there are in the Honda range?

Many Thanks,
Batpig.

[Geoff Dean]

My 15yo honda 4 stroke hand me down finally needed replacement so I bought a Masport that was powered by a Honda engine 2 years ago. Only reason I bought it was because it was about $150 cheaper than the Honda, and on the recommendation of the sales staff. To say I was bitterly disappointed with it was an understatement.

I mowed the lawn once and nearly cried. After much soul searching I went back to where I purchased, and as they couldn't address my issues, gave me a full refund. As they were not Honda Dealers I couldn't purchase from them (as was my preference) so I then went to the Honda dealer, paid the extra $150 and am extremely satisfied with the one I now have (21" Mulch 'n catch). They are an exceptional mower.

I have since purchased a 4 stroke Honda garden tiller, and when the whipper snipper and blower vac finally give up the ghost, they too will be replaced with Honda 4 strokes.

On my recommendation a friend bought the self propelled 21" mulch 'n catch and is very happy with it. My FIL has also bought another self propelled 21" mulch "n catch so he now has 2 of them. (he was also the source of my original hand me down)

You may pay a premium for them, but IMO it is well worth it.

[journeyman Mick]

Batpig
is rebuilding the old motor an option you've considered?

Mick

[Batpig]

Dear Mick,

Besides gradually getting harder to start, the Suzy’s got a few other "issues", like one-way washers that don’t want to stay put on the end of the little knobs that go through the axle-levers at each end of the front-to-rear height bar, plus a broken mesh insert in the catcher, and a cam-lock for the handle-bar that’s getting progressively dodgy with time, as well as a questionable throttle-lever assembly, etc. Having said that, I’ve just mowed two lawns with the thing this morning, and she was up to it, but I had her raised a notch above the usual height because things are pretty thick down here in Brisburn at the moment. Maybe she’s been hard to start lately because I might have oiled up the new air-filter sponge just a little too much, and I didn’t use 2-stroke oil to do it either. But she was getting hard to start before that, in spite of a new plug. New Magneto for them is about $165. With the chassis issues and all, I wasn’t particularly thinking along the lines of a rebuild. Since I’ve got a new front wheel for it on standby (you’ve got to have a "Fronty" up your sleeve to eliminate down time!), plus two sets of "matched" (using Mk.1 Human Eyeball and then "Batjig") resharpened blades, I might just keep her as a second mower to save a bit of time because I always finish trimming a fair bit ahead of my brother, who’s behind the mower (he lives over the back fence). Having two mowers would be handy. Would let me pull apart the Suzy at a bit more leisure for starters...


Dear Geoff,

Gosh, now you’ve got me worried! I thought a mowed lawn was a mowed lawn until I read your post. But I guess you might be talking about certain chassis subtleties rather than outright engine grunt. Most of the dumb things I’ve seen with mower chassis design haven’t been done for quite some time (like front and rear wheels that don’t line up!)

Undoubtedly that 21" Honda of yours would be an absolutely Kick-R’s mower (it would want to be at $1,029), but are you able to quantify in some sort of detail the nature of your dissapointment with the Masport chassis? (feel free to send me a PM if you feel a bit nervous about public criticism) I’m guessing that since the price difference below the Honda was about $150, and because you obviously like a big mower, and went for Honda power with your original purchase, that you must have had the President 5000 Honda Combo... If so, your comments would be especially valuable because the 4000 Combo IC and the 5000 Combo IC are very much on my short list, but my mind is definitely still open. Just by the by, are you a big fella, do your lawns have much in the way of a slope, and how much "yakka" is it to push a mower as big as yours around? (you see, a 20" alloy base Rover mulcher is also on my shortlist.)

Thanks Geoff. Have a think about it.
Batpig.

[Geoff Dean]

Hi Batpig,

Problems I had with the masport were varied, and may possibly not be a problem for anyone else.

Main problem was where the catcher joined main body of mower there was about a 3/4 to 1" gap that allowed grass clippings to blow out of constantly. I believe it was a design fault, as all the mowers in stock were the same.

Because of how my garden is set out, it is easier to mow in an anticlockwise direction. Shrubs, plants etc overhang lawn and will alter throttle setting on handle if going in a clockwise direction. On the Hondas, the blades reach right to the edge of the chassis on both sides, on the Masport thee was about a 4" gap between edge of blade and RHS of chassis, so I ended up with a 6" strip of unmowed lawn. Once again, maybe not a problem for anyone else, but after 5 years of mowing a certain way, I didn't want to change how I did it.

I also found it a more difficult mower to push around. Don't know why this was, possibly different design/quality/position of wheels.

Engines in both mowers were the same, no problem there.

Our block is 1100 sqm, with a reasonable amount of lawn, including a large dog yard that is rough ground and covered in paspallum. I also have a large reserve beside our block that I keep about 250-300 sqm at the front mowed. The area has quite a slope on it, about a 4 metre fall over 70m.

I had been "spoilt" by previous Honda mower, and possibly this contributed to my not seeing the Masport in the best light, but I am totally comfortable with having changed my mind. I was used to having top quality, and just didn't feel that the Masport lived up to that.

It was purchased in Jan 2006 for $915.

As to the Honda I now have, it is this one:http://www.hondampe.com.au/wps/wcm/c...s/HRU217D+Bull

Regards, Geoff

[Bleedin Thumb]

I had a Masport with (of all things) a 2 stroke Briggs and Straten. I don't know what possesed me to buy it -or for them to build such a POS motor _ I ended up throwing it.

The only small motors I will touch these days are Honda or Robin's 4 stroke!

[davo]

Hi Batpig,

In response to your PM about the B&S motors, I'm sorry but I can't remember any of the technical details. However I checked out the B&S site again and there's a way you may be able to get the technical details you are seeking.

This document http://www.briggsandstratton.com/mai...eltypecode.pdf describes where to find the model and type numbers on the various B&S engines. It also mentions Quantum and Intek. If you took this information to the dealer and got the numbers off the engines you are interested in, then go to this page http://www.briggsandstratton.com/mai...nual_and_more/ select engines and search for the model numbers retrieved from the dealer machines. This may produce the manuals you need.

However, I strongly support Geoff Dean's recommendation to seriously consider a Honda. You've probably already read about my buying experience here http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...2&postcount=40

Well my satisfaction with the Honda has only increased since then. I'm mowing the lawn in less time, I no longer wear ear muffs because the Honda is much quieter, there's no fumes (which used to wear me out) and the quality of the mulch and cut is great even when the grass is quite long and/or wet. I can't fault it really.

The extra couple of hundred dollars paid for the Honda is a bargain investment when you consider the number of times you mow the lawn over the life of the mower - say 20 times a year x 15 years - or whatever.

Anyway, good luck with the decision. I know it's hard when you can't take them for a test drive.

Davo

[Batpig]

Dear Geoff,

Thanks very much for replying. Whilst I'd have to be pretty silly to be forewarned and still miss it, that gap you talk of between the chassis and the catcher on the Masport - where exactly is it: top, bottom, sides? That is a big blunder, and it sounds like the blokes in the shop must have already known about it seeing as how they gave you your money back even though you had mowed a whole lawn with the thing. Just goes to show you - the guy in the shop will tell you (or not tell you...) what he thinks he needs to, to sell you what he wants to shift, either for higher profit, or to get rid of something. I'm getting a bit of that at my local shop, where the non-Honda-stocking guy is telling me that the Masport has a better chasis than the Honda, and that the latter is being made in the (you guessed it!) PRC...

Regarding not being able to mow out to the edge on both sides, that too does not cut the mustard. Whilst you can theoretically mow a lawn with a cut that goes out to the edge on just one side, in practice it doesn't work out that way, due to having to go around or in-between trees, as well as tight corners that you have to get into from two directions. I'll be having a real close look for this on that 4000 Combo I/C that the local guy is tempting me with for around $600. Rover, Victa, and Honda seem to all make a point of stating that their chassis cut right out to both edges...

Dear Davo,

Thanks for wading in. I managed to find an Australian link that had a little more info on the B&S motors, and it looks like there are indeed two levels of Intek - let's call them Domestic and Industrial/Commercial (read mainly "sleeved" and "unsleeved", but there's a little more to it). All of our lawns are the absolute dead-set best in their respective streets, even though everyone else around is getting them done by Honda-armed contractors, so I'm not adverse to going for another Rover at all. Trouble is, it looks like you can't get the 18" Mulch 'N Catch with a Quantum I/C, but rather just your domestic garden variety Quantum. I really like the look of the 20" ProCut 50 Mulch 'N Catch with it's snorkelled OHV Intek I/C, but I think she weighs in at about 37kg odd (the Suzy is only 28kg!), and that's got me a little bit nervous. The 19" Honda "Bull" with the sleeved GSV190 weighs in at a touch over 32kg by comparison, and certainly ticks a lot of boxes.

Will be going for a drive around to the dealers some time early this week. Will let you know of the results.

Best Wishes,
Batpig.

[Geoff Dean]

Hi Batpig,

The gap was at the top of the catcher, where it sits onto the chassis. It was a dacron bag with pressed metal about 1/2 the size of the top if I remember correctly, whereas the Honda has a dacron only bag (with a metal rod frame).

They told me when I first approached them with my concerns that I should be mowing in a clockwise direction, as this was better for the catcher, and their explanation for this did make sense, (direction of blade rotation, how it picked up and deposited into catcher etc.) but this would not adress clouds of flying clippings coming out the gap, and it did not help me with my garden layout.

I thought gap between edge of blade and chassis was just a bad design fault, but they had an explanation for this that I cannot remember.

I was surprised that they gave me a full refund, I even offered to split the difference with them on any loss they made selling the mower, such was my desire not to have it. Their response was they did not want an unhappy customer, and I have nothing but high respect for their ethics. I continue to use them for repairs and services to all my small engine tools. I also recommend them to anyone who asks about them.

[Batpig]

Thanks again Geoff,

The Masports of interest to me have solid catchers, rather than Dacron bags, so that gap you speak of shouldn't be an issue. I'll sure as heck be looking long and hard, though, for any offcentred-ness of the blade-disc under them in order to not fall prey to that other massive problem that you mentioned - ie. not being able to cut near to the edge on one side. I'll let you know what I see when I've seen it...

Regards,
Batpig.

[Geoff Dean]

Batpig, After mowing yesterday it came back to me how the catcher was setup. I now can't remember whether it was solid or dacron bag, however the catcher had a cutout area at top that the flap on mower fitted into, this was where the gap came about.

On the hondas, the flap sits on top of the catcher, which extends all the way to the chassis.

Does this make sense?

[Batpig]

Sense enough Geoff... Inspection of that area of the Masports will now be intense...

Another of my brothers was down from Nambour on the weekend and he's got two of the Suzy-powered Rovers, and one of them is getting hard to start as well. We chewed the fat a little on the subject, and today I'm going to try to pull the carby off (not altogether easy - there's a couple of studs that run through it into the engine block that even a pair of locked-together-nuts couldn't shift last night) on the suspicion that over-oiling of the sponge might have filled the fuel bowl with gunk that's making the float stick. He thinks he might have used old engine oil for his air-filter sponge too. I think the inside of the fuel line can deteriorate on them too, again with fuel bowl gunk and possibly clogged jet being the result. Will still get a "Newie" though, because would be good to have two mowers, but may not be able to do the look-around now until tomorrow afternoon or maybe Wednesday.

Thanks again,
Batpig.

[journeyman Mick]

Batpig,
if you do manage to resurect the mower think about getting some UNi-filter or Finer-Filter oil. Specifically made for foam oil filters, it's very sticky and stringy.

Mick

[Batpig]

Dear Mick,

It's too late for that... because I bought the "newie" home this afternoon......

(Besides, I had the Suzy's carby off and in several pieces yesterday, and soaked it in Kero, and hit it with the airgun through every opening, and de-coked the exhaust port as best I could, and put it back together, and still no good. The mechanic at one of the shops today thought it could be wear in the bottom end, that was somehow stopping the thing from pulling fuel up through the crankcase. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he was right because the problem has been developing for a while, and the thing is 21yo after all...)

Anyhow, I digress. I went to three different mower shops this afternoon (one of them twice) and looked at all four of the big brands. The result is what you see in the first of the photos at the bottom of this post: a gleaming new (still made in Brisbane by the way - the new factory in China hasn't been finished yet apparently) Rover Mulch 'N Catch. It's the regular 18" version, with the domestic garden-variety unsleeved B&S Quantum, rather than the 20"er with the sleeved Industrial/Commercial version of the OHV Intek. The cost of mine: $570 - they usually go for about $629...

Now why did I go for the Rover, instead of the consensus favourite - the Honda?

Well, some seemingly minor details that were nonetheless important in my situation. Besides the $190 saving compared to the base model Honda mulcher, you will see in the second photo that the Rover has got a cross bar between the handlebar stubs. The Honda hasn't - it's just got stumps if you know what I mean. "Big Deal" you'd be forgiven for thinking - unless of course you have to lift your mower in and out of the boot of a car four times every couple of weeks - like me. Then the crossbar becomes a Godsend in the way of a handle... Otherwise I don't know how you'd lift something as ungainly and heavy as a mower into a car boot! I get the impression that the Honda doesn't have the crossbar simply as a result of an all-out effort on saving weight. The Rover certainly feels heavier than the Honda - I believe it's about 35kg v's 31kg. Anyway, the Victa Mustang, and all of the Masports I was interested in had this crossbar as well...

Another thing in that I liked in the Rover over the Honda was the cam-lock for the handlebars (also visible in the second photo), compared to the Honda's screwknob-locks. Another case of "Big Deal" unless you're having to screw-up and unscrew the knob on each side every time you lift the mower in and out of the boot of the car - remember, four lifts every two weeks or so. The Victa Mustang also has screwknobs, so that narrowed it down to the Rover, and some Masports...

The blades on the Masport were indeed centred under the deck, and extended out effectively to each edge, so there wouldn't have been a problem with having to mow all your edges in just one direction (as was experienced by Geoff on what must have been a slightly earlier model), and the Masport catchers also seemed to fit okay, so for $679 I could have bought what would have been a bluddy good mower in the way of a President 4000 Combo IC, with an alloy mulching deck and a sleeved industrial/commercial version of the B&S Quantum. Only thing is, the height adjustment on the Masport was not as solid as that on the Rover (see the third photo below), which is truly industrial-grade in it's solidity. On the Masport the notched height-scale is made of impact-plastic. Okay if the mower only comes in and out of the shed - without needing a height change - but not so good if you're dropping and raising the thing every time it goes into and comes out of the car boot. Also, the catcher flap on the Rover is metal, whereas it was plastic on the Masport...

So in the end, for $110 less, the Rover made sense over the Masport, and was a better proposition for me than either the Victa or the Honda as well. What I would have really liked was the Quantum IC motor on the Rover chassis, but the chap who answers the phone at Rover said that this just wasn't available. The mechanic at the shop where I bought the Rover said that engine rebuilds weren't cost-effective anyway, even for the commercial grade motors (including Hondas), so it all just boiled down to initial motor longevity, which was still okay in a sleevless motor as long as you did your regular oil changes. Only thing is, the Honda has a four year warranty, whereas the Rover is 1 year on the chassis, and 2 years on the motor. As for the motor, you press the primer bulb three times, pull the cord once, and she starts. It's a little louder than the Honda, but I wear earmuffs every time I mow anyway. Regarding the Rover's chassis, I can tell you beyond doubt - it is a solid mutha! It is a better chassis than my old Rover, which has been going nonetheless for over two decades...

Now, I just have to wait for it to stop raining to see how well she can mulch...

Thanks everyone,
Batpig.

[Geoff Dean]

Batpig,

The most important thing is that it fits your needs. Its fine getting everyone else's opinion, but in the end you are the one who has to pay for it and use it.

You have done the right thing, you researched, sought other opinions, weighed up what was best for you, did more research, made your decision and then purchased.

Well done.

Let us all know what your thoughts of the Rover are after using it for a couple of months.